3 posts were split to a new topic: G Hall, can you answer my 3 questions?
God tells us what the point of the tribulation is in Daniel 9:24:
* to finish the transgression; and
* to make an end of sins; and
* to make reconciliation for iniquity; and
* to bring in everlasting righteousness; and
* to seal up the vision and prophecy; and, finally,
* to anoint the most Holy
Yes, the Tribulation dispensation occurs before **the Day of the Lord **. The “Day of the Lord” is the second coming of Jesus Christ when he physically returns to the earth on the Mount of Olives. There are 29 Scripture verses referencing the Day of the Lord in both the Old and New Testaments. It isn’t the “rapture” (Greek is harpazo) of the church, the body of Christ, spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 and 1 Thess. 4:13-18.
So if he’s descending from heaven where is heaven at?
Is that 1 cor verse correct? It won’t pull up
I’m sorry, I dropped the “1” before the “5” in the chapter. It’s fixed now.
Not sure why you keep asking me things that you’re probably capable of looking up for yourself, Jeffrey. You seem to have a lot of questions that could be answered by doing a few simple word studies. 
Nevertheless, Matthew 24:30 says “they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” Even without doing a word study on “heaven” for this verse, it should be evident that if people on the earth see Jesus coming through the “clouds of heaven”, then heaven is what’s visible above their heads where the clouds are typically seen.
Thayer’s Greek Lexicon for οὐρανός (ouranos in Greek) supports that with the definition, “vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it; the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced.”
So 1 cor 15 52 I’m not sure how use that for the rapture because it says at the last trump. I think we can all agree there are 7 trumps and the last is where Jesus physically comes back in the sky where every eye will see as rev 1 7 says.
Well i ask you questions because i like to know your thinking and what angles you are comming from. Obviously we see things differently so I’m just trying to see why you think what you think that’s all
I’m glad you said vaulted. Sounds interesting like the firmament!
I think these verses explain best where God is. He’s not far away he’s on top looking down on us
Isaiah 40:21-22
[21]Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
[22]It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
I enjoy to hear your thoughts on all subjects. Anything you would like to bring up go for it! Don’t take it im being negative lol. I enjoy the convo.
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Unless the two angels lied into the brethren of believers in Galilee, Acts 1: 11 makes it very clear “ Ye men of Galilee why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, so shall come in LIKE MANNER as ye have SEEN Him go into heaven. “
Remember, these people have all died. So if If the Church is raptured how will they see him coming?
This next one may be a conundrum for you:
Martha, the sister of Lazarus did not understand that Jesus came to raise her brother that same day.
John 11: 21-25
What did Martha say to Christ about Lazarus being resurrected?
Did Martha say I know at your secret second coming he will rise again, prior to Your third coming? No
: 24 Martha said into Him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the LAST DAY.”
Did Christ correct her? No
According to you Zionist Christians Martha would be considered unsaved for not believing in a secret coming prior to the last day.
Which leads me to my last question that is not related to the above subject. How can you Christian Zionists swear allegiance to two masters?
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The Abrahamic Covenant is an unconditional covenant. (If it was necessary for man to fulfill his part, it would never happen)
The Abrahamic Covenant included the promise of land. (A seed through Issac)
The Abrahamic Covenant also included a promise of blessing and redemption. (By whom?)
All the earth would be blessed through Abraham. (How?)
This promise finds its fulfillment in the New Covenant (Luke 22:20), which was ratified by Jesus Christ, the son of Abraham and Redeemer who will one day “restore everything” (Acts 3:21) (From where?) (Zech 14)
The Covenant:
Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. (Not just the Israelites)
Gen 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
Gen 15:3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
Gen 15:4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
Gen 15:12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
Gen 15:14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
Gen 15:15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
Gen 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full. (Why?)
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Gen 15:17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Gen 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. (Who?)
Gen 21:13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed. (Ishmael)
The Abraham covenant is “being” fulfilled.
When the Lord gave the land to the seed of Abraham, through Issac, to say it belongs to the Jews is not logical.
The original land given was to the 12 tribes. Would all these people even fit into that land? Where are the 10 lost tribes today?
Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; (Is the earth blessed because of the land of Israel today?)
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
The 2nd coming of Christ fulfills the Abraham covenant, land area given to Christ, “the Seed” which will rule forever. All families of the earth will be blessed and redeemed.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
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The church, the body of Christ, that you and I belong to today didn’t exist at the time the angels spoke to the believers of the KINGDOM gospel (gospel of the circumcision - Gal. 2:7). At that time, the proverbial prophetic clock was ticking away as it had since God first “prophesied” to Adam, Eve, and the serpent in the Garden in Gen. 3:15. When Adam and Eve sinned against God and were separated from Him, God put His plan of salvation for mankind into play, as well as its corresponding timeline, i.e. the “prophetic clock.”
So, back to the remnant of believers (aka “elect”) to whom the angels spoke on the Mount of Olives. They were referring back to what Jesus had taught about His return (Day of the Lord) recorded in Matt. 24:30, 34. Pay particular attention to what Jesus said in v. 34, …“This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.”
Here we are, 2000+ years later, and “all those things” that will happen in the seven-year Tribulation period have yet to happen. WHY??? Was Jesus lying? Absolutely not. Sometime relatively soon, within the lifetime of the current generation to whom Jesus was speaking, the Tribulation period would begin and culminate with Jesus’ return to the Mount of Olives to save them from their enemies and establish the Kingdom of God on earth.
This dispensation of grace (aka the “Church Age”) in which we live today was ushered in by the risen Jesus when He spoke to Saul / Paul on the road to Damascus. The significance of this is critical to “rightly dividing the word of truth” (2 Tim. 2:15).
And here it is:
God interjected and revealed a “mystery” plan of salvation for the Gentiles that He had devised and kept hidden from mankind since the “beginning of the world” (Eph 3:1-9).
The Bible defines the word “mystery” as the “hidden wisdom” of God (1 Cor. 2:7).
And this new plan of salvation for all Gentiles who have ears to hear and eyes to see was given to Paul to reveal, along with a new gospel of grace (aka “gospel of the uncircumcision” - Gal. 2:7). And, big surprise to a lot of you here in this forum, the “catching away” or “rapture” of the church, the body of Christ, is ALSO part of the mystery revealed to Paul. Now, please stop and think before you start calling me names and accusing me of being a heretic, from a purely logical point of view, if this dispensation we are living in and its associated “church, the body of Christ” was NOT REVEALED BY GOD TO ANY MAN PRIOR TO PAUL, then it only “makes sense” (a term some here love to use) that the “rapture” was also NOT REVEALED BY GOD TO ANY MAN PRIOR TO PAUL??? (1 Cor. 15:51-52).
I answered this in the response above when I explained about Jesus speaking to “this generation” that was standing before Him at the time. If the leaders of unbelieving Israel had repented of their unbelief towards Jesus as their Messiah, then the prophetic time clock would have continued moving forward into the Tribulation, and the “Church Age” in which we’re living wouldn’t have happened.
Good grief, @Mark G, I’m not stupid. This one’s easy to answer when a person rightly divides the word of truth, which I’m doing right now in this thread. Do you have ears to hear and eyes to see? (That’s a rhetorical question, by the way.)
Since you provided the verses (John 11:21-25) that formed the basis for your question, I’m going to assume it’s rhetorical as well.
Same thing…plus, you apparently answered for me.
There you go…answering for me again. No, Jesus didn’t correct her because she was correct insofar as what God had revealed to man at the time that Jesus walked the earth. Martha was referring to what WE NOW KNOW to be Revelation 20:6. As you know in all probability, the Book of Revelation had not yet be written when Martha said what she did.
BUT, the reason Martha knew nothing of the catching away of the body of Christ at the end of the dispensation of grace before the Tribulation IS THE SAME REASON I’ve already stated here in my response to you above. It was a mystery hidden in God since the beginning of the world and kept secret from mankind until God chose to reveal it to Saul/Paul.
Let me clear something up here once and for all, I am NOT a “Christian Zionist ,” and you and anyone else so inclined to name-calling needs to STOP. You’re rude and ignorant to do so, and you need to show some respect for your elders in the Lord, especially if you profess to be a Bible-believing Christian. Didn’t your parents teach you right from wrong?
Google it for yourself, but here’s the definition of a “Zionist Christian”:
“Christian Zionism is a political and religious belief system that supports the return of Jewish people to Israel. It is based on the idea that the creation of Israel in 1948 was a fulfillment of biblical prophecy. Christian Zionists believe that this event was a prerequisite for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.”
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I do NOT ascribe to a political or religious belief system that supports the return of Jewish people to Israel because…
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I do NOT believe the creation of Israel in 1948 was a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. However, I do believe that no prophecy in the Bible is being fulfilled in this dispensation of grace because God paused the “prophetic time clock” when He interrupted the fulfillment of prophecy that “…this generation shall not pass away till all these things be fulfilled” (Matt. 24:34, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32).
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Obviously, if I don’t believe in #2 immediately above, then I don’t believe that the creation of Israel in 1948 was a prerequisite for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
Can’t answer that, Mark, because I’M NOT A “CHRISTIAN ZIONIST.”
Based on your false name-calling and hostile tone, you seem very mean spirited towards me. I don’t appreciate it.
First, I want to say, anything said here from me is not to defame or insult in any way.
In looking at Galatians 2:7:
Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
This would lead someone to believe that there were 2 gospels, but that is incorrect. One needs to go back to the original text.
Gal 2:7 But on the contrary having seen that I have been entrusted with the gospel of the uncircumcision, just as Peter (with that) of the circumcision.
(The gospel is the same, just the people that Peter and Paul were entrusted to take it to was different) Verse 8 basically makes that point. Paul even went to the “Jews” first.
There was no gospel before Christ, just the law, which the hard hearted wanted to stick with. Same as the Judaism believers today. Christ’s disciples wrote some of the gospels.
Paul even called Peter out due to his hypocrisy in Galatians 2:12 for not walking what he taught.
The gospel church was ushered in when Christ died on the cross for all. Christ said he would build His church on the rock, Peter. The apostles as well as other met, some from other nations, (gentiles) and received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
(I know there is disagreement as to when the “official church” started, which to me is just the same merry go round as when the gathering is. In the end, what does it matter)
Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Definition: Nation, Gentile, people
Meaning: a race, people, nation; the nations, heathen world, Gentiles.
Act 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
Acts 2:11 - (Original text) both Jews and converts to Judaism; (Now to Christ’s gospel) Cretans and Arabs— we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!
As we see, the other nations, (gentiles is not in the original text) were already in the Judaism belief system but now converted to the Christ gospel, now known as Christian.
I wouldn’t say it was a new plan; it was God’s plan from the beginning. Same plan for all races including the 12 tribes. They were to take the lead and didn’t follow through.
God showed Peter this in Acts 10:11. Even back to Leviticus 19:34.
One gospel, given to Peter and the rest first, then Christ needed an ambassador type to reveal the mystery, which the hardheaded Jews denied, to the other nations as well as the Jews.
It wasn’t a new plan of salvation; the plan was from before the beginning of the world age. The dispensation of grace was put into effect and started at the cross, to all. Only one gospel.
If the gospel started with Paul, how could Acts 9:5 apply? Christ was crucified and risen which Paul was going against with the Judaism nonsense and following the oral law nonsense which became the Talmud. Peter preached the risen Christ before Paul was even struck down, the gospel. Christ talked of the gospel in Mark 13:10.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Peter started to build Christ’s church at Pentecost)
G2098 - From the same as G2097; a good message, that is, the gospel: - gospel.
The other nations, again, were part of the plan before the 1st and 2nd coming.
One can agree that 1 Cor 15:51-52 talks of the gathering. John also talks of the gathering in Revelation. Christ mentions a gathering in Matthew.
As stated before, most don’t disagree there is a gathering, just when it is.
The topic is the resurrection of the dead and what body they have.
1 Cor 15:22-23: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
Verse 23 is pretty clear of the when, At His coming.
Verse 52 gives a big clue also.
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Last: G2078
A superlative probably from G2192 (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time): - ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost. (There aren’t any more)
The so called “Jews” and Gentiles are not separated from this event. It says those in Christ, the rest are the tares which have their gathering also as John speaks of.
Paul’s letters to the churches that started were sent to answer questions they had in his absence. The fact that he talks of the gathering doesn’t mean that the same information was not spoken to the apostles when Christ was here. There are things Christ spoke of that Paul didn’t, but it still applies to all His followers.
Even still, it does not exclude the 12 tribes from the gathering.
(Unless I am not clear on what you are saying on this part)
I have to edit with Acts 2:47. The church was started before Acts 9.
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Looking back on the things in this thread, I spent the last few days, many hours, researching some of the statements made here. Not to condemn, but with curious interest in the different interpretations of scripture mentioned.
To my surprise, and maybe ignorance, I never knew of the different degrees or beliefs in the dispensational arena. There is dispensationalism, Acts 2 dispensationalism, Acts 28 dispensationalism, mid-acts dispensationalism and hyper-dispensationalism.
It appears within each one of them, there are even different views. This seemed to leave most if not all confused, even the ones who believed one of the various narratives.
There were numerous books mentioned, and some churches, to direct the confused to gain clarity. It seemed by the comments that the confusion still existed. Which I surmise it stems from all the variations.
In reading all the different interpretations of each view, all quoted 2 Timothy 2:15. All made the claim that they, unlike the others, were “rightly dividing the word”. It sadly came across as what Paul would say, puffed up.
I thought about all the denominations of Christianity in the world, which I knew were many, I think Brandon mentioned awhile back, so I googled it. It said there were 45,000. I realize many have small differences, but they still exist, enough to build another building down the street. (Why do we need this division?)
Thinking about 2 Timothy 2:15, if there were only 1000 denominations, there would only be a possibility of one being totally right. That means only one person out of 1000 was “rightly dividing the word”.
Below I am listing some questions that come to my mind, not for an answer, but for some to think about.
If there are 2 gospels, specifically what was Peter’s? Paul’s?
Did Paul preach the same gospel to all his churches with other topics added, or is each Epistle considered a different gospel since they are not identical? (Do the Corinthians need bother with what was said to the Galatians, or Thessalonians?)
Can Dispensationalism exist without the rapture?
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I did some more thinking and studying on this subject. I apologize for the length.
GOSPEL
I touched on this before but found something interesting.
Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel (G2098) of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (See interlinear below)
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
Interlinear:
Gal 2:7 But on the contrary having seen that I have been entrusted with the gospel of the uncircumcision, just as Peter (with that) of the circumcision.
(Does this speak of 2 gospels?)
The Greek language uses definite articles the same as Hebrew. (Shown in red) Definite articles are used as a specifier when the noun is known either because it is unique, or because it has been previously introduced in context.
You can see in the original text; the definite article is before both the circumcision and uncircumcision. The word gospel is used once with the definite article.
This tells me “The gospel” (specific) is the definite one being spoken of for both groups of people. (“With that”) With what? The definite gospel, right?
When they translated that verse into English, they added another word gospel to make the sentence flow but changed the whole meaning and context of the intended verse.
Johns Message
John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Did Christ come to preach the law, or grace through Him? Is John referring to Paul’s Gospel, Peters gospel, or THE gospel? Where and when did the word of the gospel start?
Peters message at Pentecost
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Peter’s Message to Cornelus and the Gentiles
Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Nation = Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.
Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
People = Apparently a primary word; a people (in general; thus differing from G1218, which denotes one’s own populace): - people.
Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Did Peter preach a different message to the gentiles?
Paul’s claim to the Gospel of Christ
Romans 1:13 – 17 – Paul makes the claim in verse 16 he is not ashamed to preach the gospel of Christ. First to the Jew and then the Greek. (G16872, non-jew) One Gospel.
Acts 19:22-24
Paul didn’t even think his life was worth anything if he couldn’t preach the gospel of the grace of God. Verse 21, both Jews and Gentiles.
(Does this speak of 2 gospels?)
Baptism
Baptism is another contention within the dispensationalists.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Luk 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
Paul acknowledging Baptism for Gentiles
Act 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
Paul had established the church in Corinth, and the people there were baptized as a result (Acts 18:8). (18:4 tells us the attendees were Greeks, (Non-Jews) as well as Jews) Did he preach 2 gospels to the crowd?
He himself was baptized because he had been told what he must do (Acts 9:6, 18) and what he was told was to be baptized and wash away his sins (Acts 22:16). He later taught that baptism is essential to come into Christ and into His death (Rom. 6:3,4; Gal. 3:27-28).
Furthermore, Paul says here in 1 Corinthians 1:13 - 17 that he was sent to preach the gospel. Plus, he did baptize. (Do we really think that when Paul went to the Jews, he used Peter’s gospel and then his own for the Gentiles?)
Peter and Paul
What does the gospel (from Peter) say about baptism? It says that baptism is necessary to salvation (Mark 16:15,16; 1 Peter 3:21). When Peter preached the gospel for the first time on Pentecost, he taught that baptism was necessary for the remission of sins – Acts 2:38. Paul taught the same gospel, not a different gospel (Gal. 1:8,9). Hence, when Paul preached the gospel, he also preached that baptism unto salvation. Nothing here or elsewhere denies that.
Compare this to John 4:1,2 – Jesus taught people and convinced them to become His disciples, but other disciples actually baptized the people. They were baptized in order to be disciples, but Jesus Himself did not need to be the one who did the physical act of baptism. Likewise, Paul taught the necessity of baptism, but it did not matter who did the act of baptism.
Circumcision
Another contention.
Act 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
Act 10:2 A devout man , and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
Some say that to be devout, you have to be circumcised. Abraham was given the promise long before he was circumcised. So, is there proof positive that Cornelius was, according to Peter’s gospel? He was a gentile. The case they make is that this is why Peter didn’t confess it needed to be done because he already was.
Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea (to Antioch) taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Act 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas (who were there) had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. (debate)
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, (about circumcision) Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice (G1586) among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, (G2098) and believe.
Paul and Barnabas went to Jerusalem to see if Peter was in fact teaching what these guys, that came from Judaea, were saying. He wanted to be on the same page. If he was teaching a different gospel, especially to the Jews, which he preached to, what would be the point. This meeting with Peter and “the ones of reputation” is told of in Galatians 2.
Paul did not want to be out there teaching the true gospel, running the race in vain, while Peter and the other apostles were teaching faith in Christ along with the law of Moses which is what some hung on to, the Judaizers.
Verses 8-10 – Peter accuses them of tempting God. (Which was very serious) They heard the gospel from Peters mouth, and he says they are purified the same as the Jews, in their hearts by faith. (2 Gospels??)
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
The original text:
Acts 15:11 But by the grace of (the) Lord Jesus we believe to be saved in (the) same manner (as) they also. (This is Peter talking)
Definition: Manner, way, fashion, character, conduct
Usage: The Greek word “tropos” primarily refers to a manner or way of doing something. It can denote a method, style, or characteristic behavior. In the New Testament, it is often used to describe the manner in which actions are performed or the character of individuals.
(Does this mean Peter is saying his gospel was different, not the gospel of grace, but of the law? Or is it just saying they are both saved by the grace of Christ, the same? Their claim is that Paul started an new Gospel, just to the gentiles, one of grace.)
Timothy’s Circumcision
Why?
His mom was a Jew, but his dad was a gentile Greek. In the Old Testament, the father dictated the ethnicity of the child, but not always.
Some use this to show the different gospels in that Paul circumcised Timothy because he was half Jew according to the gospel of Peter and Titus being a gentile, it was not required, he fell under the gospel of Paul, grace.
The other view is that he did this to enhance his ministry to the Jews, not to be a stumbling block. Remember even the converts to Christianity had a hang up with not being circumcised, called Judaizers.
It says he did it “because of the Jews” in those places, not because of the law. The Jews knew his dad was a Greek gentile and probably would not listen to him for that reason. This way, he could side with his mom being a Jewess and be on a more level playing field with them in his ministry. (They were weak Christians)
It is the same as Paul preached that eating meats known to be sacrificed to idols means nothing since the idols and nothing. BUT, he said if those weak Christians haven’t got past this in their head, when around them, don’t indulge since it would be a stumbling block to them.
Romans 11:13 - 14
Why and how would preaching to the other nations, gentiles, provoke jealously among the Jews?
Emulation = Definition: To provoke to jealousy, to make envious
Usage: The verb παραζηλόω (parazéloó) is used in the New Testament to describe the act of inciting someone to jealousy or envy. It often carries the connotation of stirring up a desire for something that another possesses, whether it be spiritual blessings, favor, or status. This term is used in contexts where one group or individual is made to desire what another has, often with the intention of prompting a positive change or realization.
This is a thought I had. Think about all the work it took to follow the law, especially when the Pharisees distorted it and made it their traditions. Matthew 23.
The Jews looking on the gentiles, being told they would get the same promises, not having to do any of those things.
It reminds me of the parable of the Labors in the Vineyard. They all got paid the same but some only worked an hour instead of all day.
And men, how would you like to be the guy who was the last to undergo circumcision and then Paul comes and says, oh, by the way, it isn’t necessary anymore?
The Church
Are there different churches? I would say it was one church that evolved into what we have today.
Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
This so-called church would have been in existence all through the Old Testament. They were to follow the law, which they did not and ignored the prophets sent to them.
Keep in mind prophecy told them this church was going to evolve into something different with the fulfillment of the ordnances by the Messiah, Christ, and our gift the Holy Spirit.
The religious leadership were looking for the Christ and even thought it might be John. John 1:20-21.
Luk 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
The first believers Christ referred to as His little flock. Luke 12:32.
Flock - Neuter of a presumed derivative of G4167; a flock, that is, (figuratively) group (of believers): - flock.
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
John 4:40 So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.
Would they be part of His flock, being believers, hearing His voice? Did Christ teach them a different gospel? If 2 flocks follow the same shepherd, and become one fold, would the requirements be different?
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
How many kingdoms or churches did Christ have? Was Cornelius a member of Peters church since he was converted by him and not Paul? Or did Peter preach the gospel of Paul since Stephen was now dead and now under grace?
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Jesus is laying the foundation of His church ( Ephesians 2:20). The disciples will be the leaders of this new institution, and Jesus is giving them the authority to open the doors to heaven and invite the world to enter. Paul is just a different messenger to both the Jews and Gentiles.
This is where the church in the wilderness takes a turn and evolves into something different, during Christ’s Walk. At this point in time, Christ starts to explain the plan for salvation for all, the cross, which was the plan, for all, the mystery, from before the world was created. Ephesians 1:4. Matthew 16:21-23.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness (evidence, proof) unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Nations = Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.
Usage: Witness = The term “marturion” is used in the New Testament to denote a testimony or evidence, often in the context of bearing witness to the truth of the Gospel or the deeds of God. It can refer to both the act of testifying and the content of what is testified. In a legal sense, it implies providing evidence or proof of a claim.
If the gospel of the kingdom was only for “a witness TO THE JEWS (the lost sheep of the house of Israel) that the kingdom was within their midst in the presence of Jesus, the Son of man”, why would Christ proclaim that this same gospel would be preached to the gentiles up until the end comes?
Christ contradicts the narrative that those would be under the gospel of Paul, grace.
Dispensational Quotes:
Those being delivered up for a testimony of Christ are BELIEVING ISRAEL - only those Jews who believe that Jesus was, in fact, their promised Messiah.
Every word in the Bible is FOR you and your edification and knowledge of God, but not every word was written TO you, as in applying to your walk in Christ.
You must come to an understanding that when anyone is saved by grace through faith since Acts 9 (Saul’s conversion by Jesus on the road to Damascus), they are members of the church, the body of Christ.
They are not members of the church in the wilderness (Acts 7:38), nor are they members of the little flock or believing Israel in the Tribulation. Jesus wasn’t talking to you at anytime in His earthly ministry because you are not part of the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:24).
IF they would only believe that their promised Messiah had finally come to them in the person of Jesus, the prophetic timeline would continue forward and the prophecies told by the prophets of old would continue to be fulfilled without pause.
There are several problems with these statements, one being that everyone on the planet during the time of the tribulation will and would have been born post Acts 9 during the dispensation of Grace. (During the pause in the time clock) All believers then, as stated, would be the church, the body of Christ, taught the gospel of Paul.
Anyone who is true believing Israel, the claim that they are supposedly the only ones that Christ and Peter were talking to at that time, are all dead.
Thus, those believers of Israel during the tribulation, said to be taught Peter’s gospel, being the other church of the kingdom, and are NOT the church under grace being the body of Christ, taught by Paul, don’t exist. This is a major conflict in the narrative.
Now if the Jews would have believed Christ was the Messiah as promised, and the time clock kept running, who would have had him arrested and put on the cross? Would the law continue along with the old covenant? Can prophecy change? Would Psalms 22 be null and void or a fraud?
To say the prophetic time clock paused and sits at rest after the stoning of Stephen makes little sense. Prophecy moves forward. Today we see the one world order forming, spoken of in Daniel, Iran being a big focus, which the apostles would have been clueless to. Why the 400 years between Malachi and Christ? This long wait we experience now could be the time that was allotted from the beginning. Why were 7 years allotted in Daniel, Christ says they are shortened, then John predicts 7?
The whole Old Testament history, the Prophets, then Christ, and the gentiles, (hidden mystery), can be summed up easy. “The Parable of the wicked tenants, vineyard.” This was spoken of before the cross. Who were the other tenants, the gentiles.
If the narrative is true believing Israel is stuck here during the tribulation with the unbelieving Israel and gentiles and face God’s wrath, why? No grace? If the believing Israel were saved along with the gentiles during the grace period, and they had to be, since this is the new dispensation, why are they left behind? Why were they not caught away with the gentiles?
What constitutes believing Israel today? What percentage of Israel blood is needed to be believing Israel? 50% or more like Caleb, Timothy? Their fathers were gentiles. The blood lines were heavily polluted in Babylon before Christ was born. What do we think they are 2000 years later?
To believe in the pretribulation rapture, along with the prophecies of Revelation, other things need to be in existence to make it work. The Mid-acts dispensationalism or 28, the division of peoples, the different gospels etc., must be, or it all falls apart. Do the things shown here support it?
Any Errors here are welcome to be pointed out.
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