Creation week: Dinosaurs and man didn’t walk together?

The Church Study Corner
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So you’re saying what I asked, that dinosaurs became extinct before the creation week. Reading your post I assume dinosaurs and man didn’t walk together? Then what you’re arguing is that the bible is wrong. The bible says death came into the world after sin, and sin came into world via man. There’s a hole here.

YOU believe the creation account is allegorical. That’s an opinion piece with zero factual backing…just opinion.
If it isn’t history, the whole bible is false, that’s how serious your assumption is; it’s false.

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The death after sin is a spiritual death, not physical. Before Adam, 8th day creation, man was on the earth for 2000 years. 6th day creation plus the day of rest, each 1000 years long. Logically, there was physical death before Adam was created.

Sin was not imputed till the law was given. God winked at it till then.

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If the flood covered a very large region, which I believe it did, then after the flood repopulating that region with indigenous fowl would be quicker than having others migrate in. Whatever the reason, that’s what God chose to do.

As for the creation week, you are probably getting into a whole new subject Brandon will split this off into.

Anyway, just because I believe the creation story of Gen 1 & 2 is allegorical, doesn’t mean it isn’t describing literal events and facts. It’s just the method used to describe those facts was common in ancient near east culture in general and Hebrew literature in general.

Now, I believe what many scholars do that Gen 1:1& 2 makes the creation statement, and then the rest of Gen 1 and 2 explains the events. That it is allegorical can be seen by the fact that the sun and moon were not created until the 4th day, and grass and trees were growing on the 3rd day.

Now, I believe much like Origen, that man was created before the earth became void, 2 Peter 3: 5&6 Jer. 4:24 I think it is even more plausible that the garden of Eden was in the first earth age, and is now what is referred to as paradise in the bible. Luke 16 etc

The serpent and fruit story I believe are depicting the fall in the first earth age. That is when I believe animals became carnivorous. What leads me in that direction is animals will not be carnivorous after the eschaton . Isaiah 65:25

I don’t pretend to have this all figured out. Scholars of the highest intelligence and devotion to biblical and ancient near east language study have devoted their lives to the Old Testament scriptures without consensus. Entire books have been written on but a couple passages.

But the literal interpretation of ancient near east Hebrew literature by young earth creationists is missing the message and reflects on much of the rest of their error in biblical theology. It’s why many of them believe in the rapture and literal locust, water turning to blood, mountains falling into the sea etc in the book of Revelation.

Those who study Hebrew in depth see patterns of picking up a subject from one view point and working around it from another and then returning to the previous view point again. This is why there are so many chiasms in Hebrew literature. (often the main theme is in the middle of a chiasm)

As archeology advances in it’s sophistication the signs of earlier civilization becomes more apparent and the idea that mountains were formed but 4000 years ago as a literal global flood event would seem to warrant is simply untenable outside of Divine intervention which would have to be assumed but not clarified in scripture.

The more convincing position from the interpretation of the ancient languages is that the flood was not global and the earth isn’t 7000 years old. Given the persuasiveness of this position, and the fact we know dinosaurs are much earlier than the biblical record, it seems evident there is much that happened prior to the 6000 years or so of the biblical lineage of the NT gospels.

I don’t personally believe God created dinosaurs for instance to be the brutal carnivores they obviously turned out to be. Nor do I think man would have flourished cohabiting with them.

Just some things off the top of my head I haven’t thought about in a while since you asked… :thinking:

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Obediently, good morning and welcome to the community!

This is a pretty open community, we have Christians from various backgrounds and denominations. As always, there will always be disagreement, but let’s try to work through it.

I wanted to touch on something you said.

I wrote a brief summary on Romans 5:12, but Eve was the first to sin, not Adam, and then we have to read verse 13. Another verse that gets tied in here in Acts 17:26, I wrote a study about that which will be beneficial.

I think Mr. Zac is referring to “the world that then was” spoken of in 2 Peter 3:6. It’s thought that verse refers to Genesis 1:2. I always had a problem with the common idea that God created the world a disaster, only to later make it beautiful.

I mean, why not just create it right the first time? To put the thought into perspective. Have you ever seen a carpenter build a house that was a disaster, only to start over and do it right the second time?

I have a study on this topic that may help…

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All I’m reading is a lot of “I believe” statements and no scriptural backing for your opinions. That never works out.
What you’re doing is trying to render biblical descriptions/passages etc down to what your brain is thinking.

You’ve given me nothing but opinion pieces.

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That’s utterly unbiblical. Romans5:12 refutes that “ Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—”

Again, that’s utterly unbiblical. In Genesis 4 when Cain killed Abel, did God “wink at that sin”?

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Hey how’s it

Chronologically, yes, Eve sinned first but Paul says sin came into the world through one man.

Adam was created first, and his wife was created to be a “suitable helper”

God held Adam responsible for his family, as seen in the fact that God sought out Adam specifically (Genesis3:9) Also, in His conversation with Adam and Eve, God questioned Adam first (Genesis 3:9-13), even though Eve sinned before Adam. Adam, as the leader of the family, was held responsible for what happened in his family.

1Tim2:14 Paul says the woman was deceived and became a sinner. Through deception, Eve fell into sin. Adam was not deceived, he chose to sin. He knew full well what he was doing when he took the fruit from his wife.

He was not misinformed or misled; he simply decided to rebel against God’s command.

Hence, ‘sin came into the world through one man’

Romans 5:13 section:

The argument here, as in Romans 4:15, is entirely one of perspective. Humanity does not recognize sin when God does not give us something like the law: in our minds, those sins are not “counted.” They are still sins, since we still ought to know better (Romans 1:18–20). The presence of the law does not turn righteousness into sin—it turns supposed ignorance into certain knowledge of our own wrongdoing.

Paul has shown that sinful nature every human being was born into resulted in separation from God and in inevitable death.

Acts 17:26…just shows us through Adam (one man) all nations have come.

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He did create it right the first time, He said it was good. This question you ask yourself and since have tried to reason with, comes from your own premise or opinion of it, rather than just letting the text speak and trusting Gods word.

When you argue it “became that way” you argue that God is ultimately not sovereign over His own creation.

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It’s not an argument, it’s what many scholars believe is the correct interpretation of the Hebrew text. Believing God made the earth void before starting this current earth age isn’t claiming God isn’t sovereign. Where do you get that?

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He is sovereign. It became void because HE, destroyed it. It did not become void on its own. It was overthrown, demolished.

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The text doesn’t say that, your presuppositions founded on your opinion says that.

When we unhitch from the text there’s no wonder this happens.

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An argument is anything you’ve said and stand on, which you do here.
I never said God isn’t sovereign. I said your thinking shows He isn’t over His own creation.

God made man in the beginning, yes, the beginning of creation. That fact alone refutes your idea there was an earlier ‘earth age’
Again, I’m not seeing an iota of scriptural backing from you, just opinion pieces.

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No need to get your feathers ruffled Obediently. I’m not trying to convince you of anything. I’m merely telling you how I interpret the scriptures in certain areas.

There have been books written on but a few verses we are discussing. I don’t have the time or inclination to layout the detailed Hebrew rendering many scholars use to come to a similar conclusion as I am here. (do a simply google search on the gap theory and you’ll find months worth of reading)

You want to believe man and dinosaurs lived together here on earth less than 7000 years ago that’s fine with me. I personally think it’s preposterous but then I’m just a smuck out here in farm country IL USA.

You want to believe Eve ate an apple or some other literal fruit from a literal tree and this is the cause of all the sin, death and destruction low these 1000s of years, that’s your privilege.

But saying I’m saying God isn’t sovereign over his own creation is a bridge too far. I’ve insinuated or said nothing of the kind, so I’d appreciate it if you’d not put words in my mouth. Especially making statements about what I believe about God.

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They’re not, I’m as calm as a Hindu cow.

I was once an advocate for the gal theory. But when I let the text speak the gap theory became un biblical; too many gaps, in that theory.

No need to put yourself down. It’s preposterous because you don’t let the text speak. Sin brought death into the world, your view goes against scripture and says death was in the world before sin.
What was Behemoth? An elephant?
History alone speak of man and dinosaurs co existing. We have writings and paintings and accounts etc of man and dinosaurs or dragons (the word dinosaur is a relatively new word)

I believe it because it is written. Gods word is enough. Moses recorded these.
Christ even says if you don’t believe the writings of Moses you won’t believe Christ.
John5:46-47 “For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

By the way a fruit didn’t bring sin, sin did. They disobeyed God. This is clear from the text bro.

I told you what Christ said:
“”For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?””
If you don’t believe the word of Moses as real and true, Christ says you won’t believe Him. That’s the warning.

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Now see, there you go again. Insinuating I don’t believe God’s word and I don’t believe what Moses wrote.

What are we to believe you have the expertise to interpret ancient Hebrew better than scholars who devote their entire lives to it?

Here’s just an inkling of some of what I’ve studied that is convincing to me, albeit I’m not opposed to being shown better interpretations etc.

Ancient near east languages in general, and ancient Hebrew in particular had repetitive structure common to their writings. Gen 1:1 is a prime example of an introductory statement. What follows is details to a degree of the function given to creation.

Now, let me ask you. What do you believe Gen. 1:1 means when it says “in the beginning”. What do you think beginning means. The beginning of what? The beginning of all things? Surely not. The beginning of the universe?

When do you believe Satan was created? He was sinful before Adam and Eve sinned, so sin and therefore death were in “the garden” before Adam and Eve sinned.

Let me ask you another question. Was there ever a time when time didn’t exist? Think hard now. The answer is obvious, no because then it wouldn’t be time if it was before time existed.

So then, what existed before time? Yes I know God did. But you see, we see through a glass dimly. Time is simply a dimension our carnal natures are limited by.

You seem to be arguing, (and correct me if I’m mistaken) that the wooden literal sense of our English version of the Bible read in a wooden literal sense is the Only way to be able to correctly understand scripture.

Being convinced that allegory, hyperbole, sign, symbols, and chiastic structures in the ancient text reveal a much deeper understanding is to be disregarded as strictly a fallible way to exegete the text.

Is that about right? Just wanting to know where you stand if you want to continue to insinuate that my interpretation of the scriptures is some how an admission that I don’t believe Moses. (sounds kind of silly put that way doesn’t it?)

Balls in your court.

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Mate, there’s “Hebrew scholars” who can say Jesus isn’t God- do you believe them? Your argument here doesn’t work.

Yes, the beginning of all things. This is basic stuff. Christ states that in the beginning He made them male and female. This shows that man was made ‘in the beginning’ namely the creation week. There was nothing prior.

There isn’t a time stamp for the creation of satan. The bible doesn’t say he was sinful before Adam and Eve sinned. You’re pushing your own opinions into the text, but the text doesn’t allow you to do that bro. No, because again bro, (see your issue) your opinions are contradicting scripture. The bible says sin entered the world through one man, Adam, and death from sin. So no bro, you’re very wrong here again.
This is what happens when you allow your opinions dictate the scriptures rather than the scriptures dictate themselves.

And yes, again, you don’t believe the words of Christ because you don’t believe what Moses wrote- your opinions show this fact.

God created time when He created, in the beginning, as the bible states.
What was before time? Nothing. God exists outside of time- see your fault here?

Yes it is. We have Greek manuscripts which we refer to to understand it better. You’re trying to be philosophical but it isn’t working for you bro. You go outside of scripture to try and explain things your 3 pound brain cannot because you lack the basic understanding of scripture…that it is Gods infallible word.
No. You try and hyperbole and mythicise the text, but it doesn’t work for you bro.
Christ constantly refers to the real reality of Genesis- you try and contradict that because you don’t believe it’s “real”

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Well now, I wish I had a dollar for everytime you called me bro…LOL

So let me understand you correctly. You’re saying Satan wasn’t sinful when he tempted Eve to sin by lying to her. Sounds like you may disagree with Christ’s own words.

John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

So, are you still holding to Satan hadn’t sinned when he tempted Eve?

How many verses can we find that state “Before the foundation of the World”… There’s quite a few “bro”
Eph 4:1 1 Peter 1:20 2 Timothy 1:9 1 Corinthians 2:7 John 17:24

When God said Let Us make man in our image Gen 1:26 orthodox scholars (yeah you know the ones that believe Christ is God’s son etc) agree that God is speaking to His heavenly court. (it done by dissecting the plural masculines and all that literary stuff you know).

Stars are millions of light years away. That means the light we see of them here on earth was cast by them millions of years ago in order for it to have reached us now.

So you have two choices. One the stars we see millions of light years away now where made millions of years ago if light is bound by the laws of physics which maintain our universe now.

Or Two, when the stars where made but a few 1000 years ago as you claim, the light was also made to be instantly broadcast millions of light years in all directions, and that has to be true of everyone of the trillions upon trillions of stars in our universe.

But on top of that, if Two is to be adopted as true, then after all of these stars where created but a few 1000 years ago, light began acting under a completely different law of dynamics, and has consistently every since.

But wait there’s more. Many of those stars that we see the light of now, have been burned out for millions of light years. So, not only is the light we see now not coming from a living star, but you would have to believe God made the light from a star for us to see, when there isn’t actually a star broadcasting that light in the 7000 years since the world began according to you.

Nowhere in scripture does it say the creation days are 24 literal hour days. In fact the sun and moon which dictate our 24 hour days wasn’t even created until the 4th day.

Now, just because I don’t believe your interpretation that the earth is but a few 1000 years old don’t keep telling me that I don’t believe the Bible, or I don’t believe Christ and God or Moses or anyone else in scripture.

Literalists who think they have it all down pat, and there is no other way to understand scripture are quite frankly as Origen quite often said, are of the simple minded sort. (being kind)

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Did I say what you accuse me of saying? Show me and I’ll recant.
Exactly! From the beginning, and when was the beginning? At the beginning, which is recorded in the bible. We know this because Jesus said IN THE BEGINNING He made them male and female. Want the chapter and verse?

No, I’m showing by scripture that you’re wrong about “in the beginning”
Funny you use scripture when it suits you, everything else is opinion pieces backed by philosophy.

You would do well in a Mormon gathering, it seems to be you’re arguing there was a ‘beginning’ prior to the biblical beginning and we were there.
All those verses are saying is God planned ALL things before He said “let there be light”
He is outside of time. I do hope you know that bro.
Using your logic in Revelation 13:8 when it says the lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, you’d take that literally. Was Jesus slain before the foundation of the world? (Rhetorical) thought so, bro.

By the way…I’m from New Zealand, “bro” is a part of our everyday lingo, no need to get upset about the word.

Ahh, that’s heresy. You listen to too much Heisler bro. We aren’t made in the image of angels bro.
Genesis 1:27 ends this argument.
“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.”

Light years are a measure of distance, not time. You should know this.
If you want to go regarding this point, let’s go. But you’re fabricating opinion pieces now. You should know know this stuff bro.

Moses, who wrote Genesis(remember, do you believe Moses? If not, you don’t believe Christ) actually says in Exodus20:9-11
“Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. FOR IN SIX DAYS the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.”
Try your best to refute this mate, you’ll be going against scripture.
Now, Zac, you should know this too- Genesis1 “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth.” And it was so.”
The Sun wasn’t made to dictate 24 hour days, that was already set. The scriptures are not your authority, this is why you’re failing to give coherent answers bro. God made plants with seed without the Sun present a day before, this goes against your box of science.
I will do, and have been doing so. I’m not afraid to say it, it’s true about you. You’ve got nothing substantial.

I’m not a literalist, I trust Gods word, and Gods word has ended every argument you’ve made. Try harder.

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Ok, this is becoming circular. Just answer this simple question.
Do you think Satan was sinful when he tempted Eve to sin?

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You mean like lying and sleeping with someone’s wife? :snake: :face_with_monocle:

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It isn’t, you just can’t refute scripture. It’s my circular at all, just your opinions don’t match up with scripture.

Satan had sinned prior to Adam’s disobedience. This will be a good discussion…I’m looking forward it! Look forward to your response