The Ark Encounter states 15 cubits was the “draft” of the ark. Meaning, how deep the arks hull sunk into the water. Personally, I feel that’s a shameful attempt to explain the flood. Moreover, they explain there were no mountains in the days before Noah. A direct contradiction to Genesis 7:19-20.
Nevertheless, they explain after the flood, mountains rose so the water didn’t go anywhere, (see: Where Did The Water Go After Noah’s Flood?). The land simply rose above the water. Same problem, where did all the land come from?
Most Christians really never dive into the details. For those that do, don’t miss the whole series linked at the end of the Noahs’ Flood study.
What a great SERIES on the Flood you’ve created. I should’ve read them before I posted because it looks like you’ve covered all my logical points already. At least we came to the same conclusion on many details…
Satan is the AUTHOR of Confusion… when the Apocrypha was removed from the “Holy Bible” back in the 1600’s (after the Roman catholic church was “entrusted” to translate it) it took with it an immense amount of knowledge and information… they could now say “the earth WAS without form” instead of what it should have said, “the earth BECAME without form”. The first indicates that the world didn’t exist yet at all. ‘Became’ says that it already was in existence and it was! God had created the heavens and the earth and they were perfect! He created all nations…everyone was living harmoniously as God intended. God placed Adam and Eve (specifically) in the garden of Eden to care for it… they could have anything except of the tree of knowledge. Satan, having already decided that he was better, decided to tempt Eve. And he basically told her that God was a liar. That the only reason that God didn’t want them to eat of the fruit was because they would then be as knowledgeable as he ( God) was!!! Satan wanted them to believe that God was actually holding out on them essentially!! And sadly… they fell for it. They fell for Satan’s deception, but without his presence in the garden, that wouldn’t have happened. Period. Satan is the one who fell. Satan is the one that is condemned. Not us. Because we fell for Satans deception, our souls belonged to him at that point and God knew it…because he is a righteous, just Father he decided that instead of allowing that to happen, that he would send His only son, perfect and blameless, to take our place. All we had to do was accept him…
So…time went on and eventually because satan had completely consumed the earth (except for Noah’s bloodline) so God had Noah build the ark and to gather the animals that had not been defiled by him. That is when the earth BECAME without form.
The meaning of author is someone whose written work has been published.If you’re reading the Bible and you’re confused, that’s not God. Because things have been removed, have been added, meanings of words changed, our loving heavenly father has gone from someone screaming “I love you so much that I killed my son for you!!” To sounding like an angry monger out for blood! He never wanted us to experience “EARTH AS WE KNOW IT” (hell) (not a word in the bible when you refer to original GREEK AND HEBREW)
What you are teaching here is wrong, unbiblical and misleading to those you claim to be enlightening. It is clear that the flood occurred over all the earth. Gen 7:18 says it covered every mountain under the heavens. Your false theories of a “other human race” is also incorrect because the Bible tells us that sin entered into the world by one man, Adam. These “other men” would be guiltless. Anyone reading this, please do not believe these writings, this man is twisting the Bible to fit what he believes to be “logical” rather than biblical.
Hello, MegalothX. Yes, these viewpoints are contrary to mainstream Christianity, but it does NOT mean that they are unbiblical. You might have to be willing to change your perspective on Scripture. Modern Christianity is based loosely off a VERY shallow understanding of the Bible, and this forum is for those who are willing to think outside of the traditional narrative, so if you cannot be considerate of that, then you might want to find another forum. The verse you are referring to is Genesis 7:19, not 18, and the Bible can’t be taken literally every single verse, or we’d have some major problems. Genesis 4:14 says that Cain was driven from the face of the earth. Had he been cast off beyond earth’s boundaries into space or whatever is beyond? No, but it’s an example of how there are words and phrases that can be misleading if taken literally, and there is value in getting into the original languages the Bible was written in to help clear confusion, but that’s not always necessary. I wish we could take every word of the Bible at face value, but true Bible study takes deeper work than that, and I’d like to think that our Father might reward those who seek TRUTH and HIM whole-heartedly… even if it’s contrary to what Pastor John Doe says. The translators were well-intended, but weren’t perfect, and the enemy has also infiltrated the church too so deception is inevitable. It’s not bad to use our God-given minds. Many modern Christian doctrines fail because they ultimately do not have SOLID Biblical back-up (like the Rapture. Do you believe in that too?)
There WAS a Biblical world-wide flood, but it was not the Noahic flood, and Scripture confirms that with study that you won’t find a typical Pastor doing for a Sunday morning sermon. You might scoff at this point too, but again, I question your choice of a forum as items like this will regularly be discussed. Are you going to call everyone deceivers in every post you don’t like? Are you prepared to discuss the Bible with people who very likely know the Bible better than you?
Do you really believe that Noah traveled over the entire earth collecting specimen pairs? It’s an impossible task. Did he redistribute all the animals back to their homes with a boat that was stuck on top of a mountain? See, this takes rational thought, not blind faith in words that the Bible wasn’t even written in. The mountains in Noah’s region of habitation very well could’ve been covered with water. And it’s very clear other races were created at Genesis 1:27. Look at their responsibilities listed versus Adam’s later on, who isn’t even mentioned until Genesis 2:7 - Adam’s creation AFTER those people created in the prior chapter. Who was Cain’s wife then? (Don’t say “His sister.” Was this unmentioned sister banished too? Why was Cain afraid other people would hurt him if only he and his parents existed? How could one man and wife build a fortified CITY?) See? There clearly were other people on earth. Sin did enter the world through one man, because he was the first to break a commandment, not because he was the first person created and since the whole world descends from him, sin was imputed via genetics or whatever. Romans 5:12 clarifies this by saying, “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:” The other people were not guiltless because I believe they, too, were capable of sinning but weren’t the first to do so. Adam became a TYPE of Christ because by one man’s actions, sin and death reigned… and by another one man’s actions (Jesus, the God-man and “last Adam [not literally here too]”) eternal LIFE and spiritual perfection are now what’s in store for us. A few verses after v. 12 are helpful too.
If you like to stretch your mind and dig deeper into the Bible than you might have known was even capable, then stick around respectfully and you’ll learn a lot here. If you can’t handle anyone questioning the traditional narrative of the church, however, and if you continue to be disrespecful, again, this is the wrong place for you.
@MegalothX, I can appreciate disagreement. Especially if Scripture is used. However, to say I am twisting Scripture because we believe differently is not okay. You’re calling me a bad person at that point. We don’t do that here, (see: House Rules). Moreover, I never claimed to “enlighten” anyone. I just share what I believe to be true.
I think Talitha covered it, but remember what the Bible said,
Gen 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
The depth of the flood was 15 cubits. The Bible said that was enough water to cover “the mountains”. Look it up, 15 cubits is about 25-31 feet. So then, the flood was only 25-31 feet deep. That’s what the Bible said.
Concerning races, I don’t believe African, Asian, Mexican, Caucasian, etc people came from one race of people. That never happens today either. God didn’t cause man to evolve, neither does the Bible say that, (see: Did We All Come From Adam And Eve?).
So, how about we read Romans together.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
God specifically told Adam, don’t eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, right? But, he did. In fact, it was Eve that ate first, and also gave to Adam. So Eve was the first to sin. Moreover, we don’t inherit our parents sin, so we didn’t inherit sin from Adam, (Eze 18:20). We die, as we “all have sinned”. Adam received the blame here, as Adam was supposed to be the man of the family, but he let his family down by allowing Satan into it.
Regardless, everyone stops reading there, but let’s continue…
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Now there’s the key.
The Bible said, sin was in the world before the law was. However, sin was not held accountable until God provided a rule against what He considered a sin. God did give Adam a law, don’t eat from that bad tree. He broke it, so he is considered the first to sin.
However, this also tells us, others were sinning, who were they?
These views are not merely contrary to “mainstream Christianity” but contrary to the bible itself which is a problem and the reason I commented. There are phrases meant to be taken literally and those that are not; the problems arise when the wrong verses are chosen to be interepreted as euphemisms instead of fact. The distinction is made based on the verse’s implications on the rest of the book. If the literal interpretation is out of line with other facts in the bible, we say it must be analogous to something else; if saying it is analogous removes the truth no matter hoe incredulous it may seem as Christians we believe it. Case and point, no, Cain was not driven to outer space because the bible tells us he then left to LAND and built a city. Since outer space is out of line with other facts of the bible there must be an analogous meaning. True bible study is the undertanding of when and where to apply our mortal logic to the sacred text. Your forum cannot be a safe haven for unbiblical teachings nor a license to use said God-given minds to lead other people who might find this forum into those false teachings. I believe what the bible teaches, once you start saying with mortal logic "certain things don’t make sense to me so I’ll pridfully reinterpret God’s word” you make way for trying to deny that Jesus performed miracles or that resurection is possible. These are the people John warns about in his letter who deny the truth in favor of philosphical or “scientific” reasoning as this forum does.
The Noahic flood was world-wide, that is what the bible states so that is the truth. If you read the bible it explains that God was orchestrating the flood preparations, not Noah. Noah did not go and get the animals, God sent them and they came to Noah. No, Noah did not have to redistribute the animals after the flood; unlike man they spread back out over the earth naturally as God willed it. Your “rational-thought” will not serve you well if you cannot read the bible, and this is the type of thing I am writing about. These interepretations are either misreadings, or plainly incorrect.
As for these “other people”, I will again point you to the rule that if it contradicts other scripture then we say it has a meaning other than what it may seem on the surface. Genesis 1:27 outlines God making man, which is named after the first and only mand he made:Adam. This outline is then expanded upon in Genesis 2 where it details that he formed him from the dirt. This is where that rule comes into play. If you suppose that the events of creating man in Genesis 1 are separate from the cretaion of man in Genesis 2, this creates the false narritive that Genesis 2 lists new things and that would mean God made a second earth. This is incorrect. Genesis 1 and 2 tell and clarify the same facts, that God made the world and all that is, then He made A MAN and His intention for them was for them to have dominion over the earth. And yes Cain married either his sister or his neice from Abel’s children. As you mentioned, sin was not defined by the law so what we call incest now was simply not known as that then. This is not to say that they were magical beings who were unaffected by its adverse consequences; their lifespans decreased noticebly as time went on, but this is to say that the bible does not state that God created other people so the only logical path is that it was a close family relation.
Your statement of “sin imputed via genetics or whatever” is false. Sin is when we disobey God. Man being ushered out of the garden was a result of Adam and Eve’s disobedience and once they sinned their children inhereted the reppercussions set forth by sin in that they no longer were in the garden, but they also sinned themselves. Genetics do not pass on sin, other wise Jesus would have had sin in him from His mother, but He was perfect.
This is not a metter of “questioning a traditional narritive”; I do not believe the earth was made in seven 24-hour days, our days themselves are changing so theres no reason to believe those days were exactly the same. However, no one should take it upon themselves to reinterpret God’s word through any lense that takes away what it states is the truth. If you do not like it, that is your choice, but it is absolutely wrong to try and change it and worse yet lead others to believe in false doctrines. I do not seek a fight, that is not my goal. My only reason for posting is to make sure I see as many of my brothers and sisters in Christ in the new world God creates.
Hello, I replied to Talitha above and it may help to view that prior to this response. I am not calling you a bad person because you believe differently, but I have to tell the truth that you are not teaching biblical truth.
Regarding your statement that the flood was only 15 cubits, the measurement is correct but the interpretation is incorrect. Genesis 7:20 is stating that the waters were 20 feet above the mountains. This is what the bible says and there are translations that also verify as much.
Concerining genetic variabiliity, the derivation of the races from a single is completely possible due to mutation and environment. The bible may not mention evolution, but it never mentions alzheimers either. That’s because humans named these things that are natural parts of the world God made. Evolution as Darwin and Wallace presented it was merely a glimpse of what God made; to understand its place look no further than a parent and child. They have descent with modification, this is what God designed.
The law countering sin was in reference to the time before the mosaic law was given. When the bible references the “law” this is what it speaks of; the sinning done was by all the humans who lived from Adam and Eve until the liberation of the Children of Israel from Egypt.
As I stated in my response to Talitha, it is not my intention to fight with anyone. My only reason for commenting is becasue I want everyone to know the truth and to live eternally with God in peace.
You’ve proven nothing. This is not personal interpretation as it has Biblical back up that you refuse to see. Many people have come to these same conclusions across the globe and at different times. You have no discernment for truth, so go ahead and sit in your pew and believe what others tell you to believe. Leave us alone here so we can pursue truth in peace.
Here’s the thing, there are thousands of denominations and hundreds of different English Bible translations. They are all different. They all believe different than you and I. So which one of us has the real truth?
Yes, God brought the animals to Noah. However, God did not spread the animals around the earth after the flood, the Bible never said that. You added that. So then, how did the alligator climb down Mt. Ararat, across sandy deserts, and swim across the salt water ocean to Florida? Gators die in saltwater.
Again, the Bible does not say that. You added that.
No, that would be your personal interpretation. The verse said,
Gen 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
Two different conditions there. The waters went up 15 cubits, which covered the mountains. Other Christians believe 15 cubits was the depth the ark was submerged in. So everyone has their take, which one is right?
Earlier you said, when we deny what you perceive to be the truth, then we can begin to deny “Jesus performed miracles or that resurection is possible”. Now, you’re here introducing evolution as if that was a part of God’s Creation. It’s your opinion that it is, and the reason you use that logic is to explain the races.
When you introduce evolution in order to explain the Bible, that’s exceptionally dangerous territory. You end up validating the anti-God movement by endorsing their theory.
To close, no one here wants an argument. I think we’re having a spirited debate at this point. That’s all well and good. When we state our case and be respectful about it. Just remember my first question here. Who has the truth, which denomination and which Bible?
In the end, no one has it all right. So it’s best to have some debates here and there, and then love those who love Christ. Most of the world doesn’t, might as well find agreement where we can.
You’re also insinuating that we are not going to be a part of God’s kingdom since we believe differently than you. Is it your mission to sow discord in places that believe contrary to the traditions you are so loyal to? This is how you spread peace? Calling people who love God deceivers and heretics basically? You also interpret Scripture as you see fit, believing that days and DNA change over time, blah blah blah. (How is that any different than the theory we came from monkeys???) That’s a MUCH farther stretch than anyone here has done! Those premises have ZERO Biblical back up, whereas all our points can be proven not with one obscure passage of Scripture, but in several areas of the Bible. That’s pretty hypocritical of you to criticize us of what you do yourself, LOL. We love the Lord here and are trying to do right by Him. A good debate or argument can be constructive for sure, but what are you bringing to the table? Zero Bible and a justification for incest??? Too funny!!!
Though there may be many denominations, there is only one truth. The different translations of the bible that are valid exist only for clarity, not to give a confusing plurality of our belief.
In regard to the animals spreading back out, this is common sense as the only reason for them being placed in the ark was to preserve them so that they may later exit the ark and spread back out.
The Bible often leaves out the names and even births of women; it is reasonable to conclude that the names and births of their daughters were not recorded just as the name of Cain’s wife was not recorded. Nowhere does it mention that he went to a different group of humans to take a wife as it does for Isaac or Jacob.
Genesis 7:20 NIV actually does state that exact fact. A flood of only 20 feet, while dangerous and deadly, would not cause the disaster spoken of in the text as areas in Ararat (Armenia) are quite mountainous.
The “anti-God” movement has no bearing on me stating the truth. Almost every scientific theory from Newtonian physics down to even Darwin’s theories came from men who believed in God. Science is God’s, the anti-God movement is as confused as they are invalid. Genetics varying and modifying is how God designed us, this is self-evident and not necessarily something to be argued over.
I agree with loving one another and trying to discover the best pathway forward according to God’s word; I certainly am not here to fight. No single denomination is meant to be the “true” denomination; only a matter of what is more emphasized such as Pentecostals emphasizing the miracle of speaking in tongues. The only reason I post is to ensure that no matter what is emphasized the truth is always at the core.
I would like to clarify that when I reference evolution I am referring to micro evolution not macro evolution. As a Christian, we interpret science through the lens of the Bible, not the other way around. To come to the conclusion that there was not a world-wide flood is to deliberately ignore what the Bible says. In Genesis 7:19 the Bible states that the highest mountains under the whole sky were covered. It goes on to say that the waters were over these mountains; this is clearly stated in modern English in the MSG and several other translations, but the KJV text is just as clear.
Reading the previous verses of the highest mountains under the entire sky being covered, the verses that clearly state that all life on earth (no, the argument that dry land means that just a single area flooded is not logical), and then this one regarding the height of the waters, it is illogical to conclude that the flood must have only been 15 feet high or that the flood was locally contained to a single region. This may please the view you have of the events, but it is not biblical.
As for the redistribution of animals such as the ones you mentioned, I will draw on historical science and some common sense to explain. With the relatively recent layout of earth, it is impossible for humans to exist in separate continents. The reason they do is explained using structures that have likely vanished now, termed land-bridges and ice-bridges. It would be very simple for animals to migrate across these structures and reach incredibly far areas just as is claimed for human migration. To further account for animal dispersion, the simple fact that humans spread back out after the Tower of Babel alone provides the basis for species redistribution. As humanity traversed the earth, they likely took their cattle and other animals with them. We see the same thing in species brought to the americas by European colonizers, which may puzzle some in the future as to how they arrived but is simply explained by human actions.
I do not believe that having an accurate scientific understanding of all biblical events is necessary to be saved; I doubt those without education now who believe in Jesus would be turned away at the gates because they don’t understand permineralization. The reason I comment and post where I do is because there are those who are unable to comprehend the Bible due to misinterpretations on the behalf of other believers, similarly to misinterpretations of the moral tenets contained in Scripture. I want people who have scientific minds to be able to understand the Bible, but I do not want them to adjust it for the sake of reconciling it with ever-evolving scientific theories regarding the past.
I hope this has been clear and please reply if you’d like to further discuss; I think this is a good dialogue.
That’s your opinion, which is primarily based off the word “earth”.
I plainly explained what the Hebrew word “earth” means. It was translated as “land” twice as often as the word “earth”. Who then decided the Hebrew word אֶרֶץ should read “earth” in English in the verses in question?
The Bible translators did.
On the other hand, God simply called earth “dry land”. When you understand that simple point, the Bible makes so much more sense, (see: Was Noah’s Flood Global?).
What you said is impossible. All land masses were not connected a few thousand years ago, but even if they were, alligators are unable to survive the various climates they would have been exposed to. Moreover, alligators are only found in the southern U.S. and China. The reason being, those are the climates that suite them, those are the climates they were built for.
You will note, we do not find animal remains from the mountains of Ararat that lead to their final destination. Being, their habits of today. There’s no trail of evidence. Instead, we find polar bears in the north. We find animals in their own specific environments.
It’s only logical to conclude, those animals were created there. They did not roam from the mountains of Ararat, otherwise, they would be dispersed everywhere across the globe. Not just pockets of species here and there. If they could survive in environments like the mountains of Ararat, they would still be there.
I must add, comparing man’s migration to that of animals is comparing apples to oranges. Mankind can live anywhere. Why? We can adapt to our environment. I can build a house to keep warm or make clothes. Animals cannot do those things.
What you are really saying is, you use an invented form of science to fit your Biblical view. That’s what “Christian science” is all about. Theorizing that the earth is only 6,000 years old, that we all came from Adam and Eve, and Noah’s flood was global. The same beliefs as the Ark Encounter.
You reject any science that states otherwise, and you tell Christians who don’t believe as you they “deliberately ignore what the Bible says”.
Your version of science says all dogs, wolves, foxes, etc came from a single pair of animals, and evolved into what they are today. That all lions, tigers, and kitty cats came from one species and evolved.
How is that Biblical, how is that logical?
So then, you cannot say my position is un-Biblical. I am not inventing scientific theories to fit my understanding of Scripture, but you certainly are.
They couldn’t, so folks like yourself say fish evolved into what they are today. Anytime folks like yourself cannot explain your point of view with the Bible, young earthers use some form of unholy evolution to fill the gap. That’s not Biblical.
In the end, the global flood belief rests solely on some form of evolution which the Bible never even hints at. Instead, this theory was derived from the minds of men. The burden of proof is on you, and your theory makes it unreasonable to believe.
My belief does not require the invention of new science or evolution. Just a simple understanding of Scripture and the word “earth”.
The Bible says; “And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.” - Genesis 6:17
In Genesis 7:1-6 we read the account of what the LORD said to Noah about entering the ark. Having searched the Authorised (King James) Version (AKJV), the word ‘global’ is not found anywhere in the Bible. This passage clearly states; “And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.” - Genesis 7:6
Regarding single mention of the ‘planets’ in 2 Kings 23:5, this in relation to burning “incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven.” The earth is never described as a planet or a globe in the Bible.
What are to make of these worldly discrepancies which are contrary to the Word?
“For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.” - 1 Corinthians 14:33
If you are interested in the Noah’s Flood series, I encourage you to read the studies. I don’t have much more to add. I spent at least a year of my life writing 11 chapters that address everything about the flood.
I see you believe in a flat earth. I disagree, but the shape of the earth is not relevant to this discussion.
Mountains are created through tectonic plate movement caused by mantle convection. —Plates crashing into each other. ----Perhaps during the time of Noah, the mountains were not as tall as they are today. We would need to know the topography of Noah’s time.
erets means the land in the Noahic passages not the entire earth.
the earth was still in the state of pangea and the mountains peaks were of very low altitude.
Since even at 15000 feet ice forms on mountains close to the equator, so mountains anywhere on earth above that level being covered with water
would mean the entire earth would be an icecube or more correctly ice ball.
Also, unless God directly relocated the animals supernaturally, it is nigh on
impossible that 2 sloths for instance could travel across the Atlantic to South
America before perishing, or the koala bear to Australia, and many other species
too numerous to mention which are only indigenous to various parts of the earth
and no fossil record exists to show they ever lived anywhere else.
Then of course you have the dinosaur issue. Personally I believe they became carnivorous after sin entered the first earth age via Satan, which is compatible
with the return of animals co-habitating peacefully in the new earth age to come, Isaiah 11, 65 etc.
Now, if the earth was in a state of pangea prior to the Noahic flood, then we have a whole new ball game.
There are those who believe:
Genesis 10:25 KJV: And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother’s name was Joktan.
This refers to the division of the continents after the flood.
In this whole discussion, I would like to propose that much of the first several chapters of Genesis are written in a figurative narrative. For instance, the sun, moon, and stars weren’t created until the 4th day, so how could there be evening and morning in the first 3 days?
Part of the issue is many Christians read the Bible in general and the OT in particular
from a western mindset instead of learning how the authors of the ancient near east
Many try to read and interpret Genesis and most of the OT like they are reading the
front page of the newspaper, when actually they may be better off reading it as they
would the political caricatures or even the comic section which both relate truth,
but just in a completely different way and with a completely different set of
Got to go tend to my sourdough bread, but I’ll revisit this thread. It’s an interesting as
well as important one as it relates to the way we see the biblical metanarrative as a