Debate about the rapture

Can you explain to me the pre trib

@Jim_Dee, this site has an internal search. The very first thing I did when I found the site was search the word “Rapture”. I have a feeling you may be disappointed in what you read; try to keep an open mind and checkout everything Brandon has so carefully documented. I’m sure most on this site hope you will stick around and ask questions— but I doubt that you will get many to jump aboard the pre-tribulation rapture ship.

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Hello Oldman. (I’m one too : ) Not to appear smug but the only reason I would stick around is to answer questions, not to ask them. I have been reading and studying the written word of truth for over 40 years and have increased in wisdom (by constant request in prayer) and knowledge during that time to arrive at a place that I never believed I would be. A very mature Christian man that is CERTAIN of what I believe and why I believe it. It is very rare to find others who rightly divide the written word in this age as most do not read and study for themselves but have instead latched on to “teachers” on social media, usually a person teaching erroneously, not rightly dividing the word of truth.
There are a few questions I might ask here and they are relative to my understanding that the pre trib Rapture is a Biblical FACT and is woven throughout the tapestry of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. I always ask others whose conclusions are different than my own HOW it is that they arrived at their own conclusion and a good example I might use to illustrate this is to mention the flat earth crowd. I have presented to everyone that told me this flat earth nonsense every impossibility that the earth is flat and I usually get crickets in return.
I will do the same here (if asked) respectfully questioning those who don’t believe that the pre trib Rapture is Biblical truth as to why they believe this and how they came to their conclusion.
There was a time as I was growing in the faith and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ that I was not certain about the debate of pre or post trib Rapture. I knew in my heart that the uncertainty I had was due to a lack of diligent BIBLE study on my part and I set out to satisfy the truth for myself committing to study intently until I arrived at the truth. I studied this subject more than I had ever studied the Bible for understanding of any other doctrine until I was satisfied that I was CERTAIN that I was standing on the ground of Truth and that God was satisfied with me in understanding that truth. In studying this topic so intently, my eyes were also opened to another Bible truth that I had not considered and learning this actually helped me to understand many things in addition to the truth of the PreTR.
I have friends and relatives who call themselves Christians who disbelieve in the pre trib Rapture and it has always confused me as to why they can’t see the truth about it. It’s for the same reason that I couldn’t see myself; I wasn’t RIGHTLY DIVIDING Scripture. I believed as many do, that the entire Bible speaks to we Christians who live in this day and age. It was then that I learned why I encountered so many of what I thought to be contradictions in God’s written word. I wasn’t dividing the Bible into DISPENSATIONS. There are another couple of reasons for one to resist the imminent Rapture doctrine and that is that the person is either unsaved (Christian in name only) or seriously backslidden and they don’t WANT to see Jesus Christ RIGHT NOW.
When I learned about the topic of Dispensationalism, I bought a book by Clarence Larkin, DISPENSATIONAL TRUTH, and sifted it carefully. I do not trust any one person for all doctrine (as many do) for example, Larkin is a “gap theory” proponent and I am not. I have studied the topic to my satisfaction and I believe that to hold to such an idea simply doesn’t contain enough sound doctrine to support it and is dependent upon several key Biblical verses that proponents of the gap theory hang their evidences on quite loosely. I believe that the gap theory was invented by those attempting to fit modern science’s “billions of years old” universe into the Bible but the truth is that the earth and universe are approximately 10,000 years old, but I digress.
There are far too many evidences to begin to list here about the evidence and truth of the pre trib Rapture but if you would like to begin, I would be happy to debate the subject on this thread and perhaps increase the knowledge of those who watch. What is your number one reason from Scripture for disbelieving the pre trib Rapture? (Please, allow us to read from the same page. I use the KJV. When quoting Scripture please do the same.) The new version issue is another lengthy study and worth every minute of time spent in so doing. The new versions are an ATTACK on the pure, preserved, written word of God. This is another topic in modern Christian theology which is dividing, confusing and altering the truth in these last days. If Jesus comes for us before I get a response about the PreTR, I’ll just explain it to you on the way up! Blessings and PEACE of the Holy Ghost be upon you as we await our Blessed Hope! Titus 2:13

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 Jesus comes (the Lord HIMSELF; not angels to gather the “elect” AKA the Jews Matthew 24:31) but NOT completely to this earth but on the clouds (not “clouds” of people) of Heaven and with a SHOUT and the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God (not the last trump in this verse; the “last trump” refers to the 100th trump of the Feast of Trumpets) Then, we who are alive are caught up with the dead (who were raised first) to meet the Lord in the AIR in the CLOUDS of Heaven which Jesus brings with Him and after that we will be with Him forever. Wherefore, COMFORT one another with these words.

With what words? This? "The earth is made empty and few inhabitants remain (Isaiah 24:1) and many men are burned from the scorching sun? Or? “Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.” (Isaiah 24:6) Or perhaps we will be here for this…“The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.” (Isaiah 24:19) And we should, “comfort one another with these words.” Are you comforted Jeffrey, that God is going to allow His BRIDE to suffer the pouring out of His WRATH?

“For God hath not appointed us (born again Christians) to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thessalonians 5:9) and “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” Revelation 3:10 and it will be by 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

The pre trib Rapture is not an invention of Margaret McDonald or Charles Nelson Darby but the pre trib Rapture is woven throughout Scripture in types and shadows believed by Christians throughout the ages. Paul the Apostle awaited the “catching away of the saints” and many of the church fathers believed in pre trib Rapture— Irenaeus, Cyprian, Chrysostom, Eusebius and Origen; so the notion that the Rapture is a relatively recent addition to Christian theology is a completely FALSE one. This one untrue statement alone shows the errancy of this false teaching. Jesus Himself Spoke about the Rapture to Martha and Mary in John 11:25 (read that carefully - Jesus speaks of the Rapture. “he that liveth shall never die?” That verse gives me goosebumps because I know what it means!)

1 Corinthians 15:51 also explains the Rapture. When the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11 is sounded it’s not called the “last trump” as found in 1 Corinthians 15:51 but simply, “the seventh angel sounded”. That’s simply because it is NOT the last trump but the SEVENTH ANGEL’S TRUMP. This fact alone makes every bit of the evidence given on this blog which attempts to build a case against the pretrib Rapture crumble to dust! The whole case is built upon “the last trump” in the example on this page. It’s NOT the last trump that the angel blows in Revelation 11:15!

The prior 6 angels that held the trumpets were sounded as the ushering of the WRATH of Almighty God upon this earth. It is impossible to imagine just how devastating these horrific events will be.

There are TWO separate and distinct “comings” of Jesus Christ recorded in Scripture, the first time He comes, He doesn’t step on the earth. The first coming is to remove His Bride (Revelation 11:9) and He comes ALONE not with his angels and the second coming is when He puts His feet on the earth (Revelation 10:2 and Zechariah 14:4 AFTER the tribulation and sends His angels to the ends of the earth to gather His ELECT (the Jews).

God made His written word so that one would have to STUDY to know the truth about this. He put many little gems throughout His written word for those who seek to find the truth and put them together to form a foundation for the truth. He is coming and this is our Blessed Hope!!! Titus 2:13

I wait for Him every single day and that He is coming so very soon evidenced by the fulfilled prophecy and current world events and with the tribulation period now casting its shadow on this age gives me GREAT hope and joy and this is what this blog seeks to take from we who have learned this amazing truth. That His coming is very near is an understatement. (setting up famine, setting up the NWO for antichrist, destroying the earth with geoengineering, setting up the mark of the beast, digital monetary system, persecution of Christians etc. etc.)

I must conclude that I may be one of those that Paul revealed in 1 Corinthians 15:51 as being one of the very few in His Story that never dies, and this sends pulses and waves of utter JOY throughout my soul!! And I won’t allow anyone to steal my joy!!

So, is it “comfort one another with the news that we will see the horrors of the tribulation period and probably die?” (billions will die) or “comfort one another with the TRUTH” that Jesus Christ is going to deliver us from the horrors coming on this earth after which we will live with Him forever and ever in unspeakable Glory now coming VERY VERY VERY VERY soon!!! Which do you think Paul intended to comfort us with?

Books have been written on this subject. Reader: If my comment here isn’t enough to convince you (and check to make sure), read the Bible for yourself and study it until you SWEAT, begging God to show you the TRUTH in this most important matter. Check me on my facts, don’t take my word for any of this.

Finally, what is the motive for twisting the meaning of words seen in this blog called, “The False Hope of the Rapture”, (saying clouds are people; misapplying the words “last trump”; “caught up in the air” with air meaning “breathe” etc.) taking words out of context and stretching the facts to form around an opinion which is contrary to what the Bible states categorically? I’ve been studying the Bible 40 years and the MORE I study it the more I see that its words are LITERAL rather than metaphoric.

@Jim_Dee, thanks for your reply.

I think you are posting under the wrong topic/thread. Go to the second link that Cozar suggested; you may get a better audience under the proper topic.

Jim, I do not believe in a rapture because it is not mentioned in the gospels. . And I do not know all of the details, I’m a layman. I live on blind faith of the promises Jesus made to me. That is what he means to me. Everyone of us are unique. So it stands to reason that each and every one of us has a unique faith and relationship with Christ. What I know in my heart is what he revealed to me and may differ from what he revealed to you. I respect yours and others perception. If you or anyone else rebukes my interpretation, that’s ok. Because You nor anyone else will stand beside me at judgement, so I can not take you or anyone else’s
word. I choose to stand on my own heart. I think I will be fine. While I have many regrets and have committed many offences that I am well aware of, those matters are solely between me and the lord. Only he and myself know my heart. I’m good with that.


With that being said
Please tell them about this site.

I think they will enjoy the studies. :+1:

This study is a great one for starters.
There is nothing hiding in the shadows here. :sunglasses:

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Who specifically are you saying are considered the Jews? That are the elect and are going to be here for the tribulation.

Great advice!

@Jim_Dee, I just moved the rapture posts over here for better discourse. Enjoy sir.

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All who are BORN AGAIN; that is SAVED by the Atonement made by our Creator, Lord and Savior Jesus Christ; whose sins have been REMOVED as far as the east is from the west; who BELIEVE the Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and that Jesus PAID for our sins which releases us from the debt owed because we are cleansed by the Shed Blood of Jesus; all who believe this will be REMOVED prior to the WRATH of God. All who do NOT believe will be here and SUFFER the great tribulation and either be killed BY the events (billions will die) or will be decapitated by guillotine for professing faith in Jesus and for refusing the mark of the beast.

I have read the page about the Rapture being a false teaching. I have commented on it on this thread. Have your read that comment? It’s rather lengthy, maybe the same size as your page about the Rapture being false doctrine. I would love to debate you on the topic if you are willing. I promise to be civil and respectful.

You still didn’t answer my question. Your statement is below. Just trying to clarify what you are saying.

So, the Jews, which you still haven’t explained who they are, will be here and go through the tribulation. According to your answer, they did not believe and have atonement since they are still here.

My dear brother in Christ, please take the time to read this carefully. I will begin by responding to your mention that, “you choose to stand on your own heart.” (You cannot stand on your heart because, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9) and, you said, “I think I will be fine.” My direct response is, “I choose to stand on THE WRITTEN WORD OF GOD”, and I KNOW FOR A FACT that I will be fine, actually much better than “fine”. Why would you settle for such incomplete knowledge when we have God’s written word? Have you studied the Bible? I also am a layman. I’m a retired Chef but I have studied the Bible and continue to study.

Most people in the world don’t believe and they don’t have the hope that we do but you have professed faith in Christ so you owe it to yourself (2 Timothy 2:15) and to others (having knowledge of these things so that you can SHARE in the expansion of the Kingdom of God)
You said the Rapture is not mentioned in the Gospels (Jesus actually mentioned it in John 11:25) but it IS mentioned in Paul’s Epistles. Paul’s Epistles were translated from Greek and the Greek word for Rapture is Harpazo. So it is mentioned and it is further expanded on in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:51 where Paul tells us it is a MYSTERY which was previously not known by those spoken of in the 4 Gospel accounts.

Hear this: WE have been selected, you and I, to be alive to witness the events leading up to the Rapture. God CHOSE us to live in this time and place when He just as well may have chosen us to live at ANY OTHER TIME IN HISTORY. Please grasp this! We are standing on the precipice of the greatest event in the His Story of mankind since the Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus Christ and the giving of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost,…the Rapture of the church (all true believers). I mention this to encourage you to learn this truth and join us (we who have understood the Scripture) in the anticipation of the most joyous event we will ever know!

Please, come out from under whatever it is that is preventing you from studying His written word the AV KJV of 1611. Ask Him for wisdom and understanding. That is what I have done (and continue to do) because I realize the importance of my life in Him AND the importance of being selected to live in this most unique age. I want to do His WILL and not my own. I will pray that God give you the Blessings of His Holy Spirit to guide you to understand His Will in your life.

If you want to prove your point scripturally, you need to answer the questions given you as you said you do. If I am mathematically inept, and ask an addition question, giving an algebra lesson isn’t going to go anywhere.

If some are here for the trib and some not, and the Jews are going to be, who are they? If I am a Jew the rapture is mute to me according to what you are saying.

The Jews are those from the 12 tribes of Israel described in Scripture. At the present time, the nation of Israel is, like the rest of the world, mostly secular however there are some Jews throughout the world and in Israel that are saved because they have accepted the fact that Jesus is their Messiah just as every born again Christian has. I do not understand your statement; According to your answer, they did not believe and have atonement since they are still here.

Please do not complicate the simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. All who believe and are saved will be taken in the “catching away of the Saints” or Rapture. All who do not believe will be left behind to endure what the Bible describes as 7 years of the most destructive and dangerous times ever seen on the earth.

You seem to be getting hung up on my reference to Mark 13:24; But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. This will, of course, include those saved DURING the tribulation.

The “elect” is the word used throughout the Bible as the Jews who are God’s “chosen people”. He came as their Messiah to save them when He came the first time but they rejected Him.

Paul wrote:
Two letters to them, not just one.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12

What I get out of that is
The False Christ comes first.

The above is the statement you made.

After the trib would be after the so-called pretrib rapture. So, if Christ comes again the 2nd time, and collects the Jews, the elect, then they would still be here and you said the ones who are saved and atoned would be raptured. So, following logic using your statements, they are not atoned.

Who said Paul only wrote one letter to the Thessalonians? My license plate used to be “2THES2-1-12” circa 2009. However, in the quote you use, you didn’t read far enough.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let , until he be taken out of the way. And THEN shall that Wicked be revealed,…

The tribulation comes AFTER the Rapture. I believe there are two reasons people choose to believe that the tribulation comes before the Rapture. One, they don’t like the idea of meeting Jesus Christ AT THIS VERY MOMENT because they are either backslidden or unsaved. (As for me, I want…to see Him RIGHT NOW!) or because they want sufficient time to “prepare” to meet Him, e.g. if the tribulation comes and there is yet no Rapture, then they have 7 years warning before He finally comes.

If you study Scripture with the intent of knowing the truth, without preference but seeking the truth in all matters WHEREVER IT LEADS, applying this to the timing of the Day of Jesus Christ, you will find that it is IMPOSSIBLE that born again Christians could/would go through the tribulation period which is known as “the time of Jacob’s trouble”. The tribulation is for the JEWS not for the Christians.

After the tribulation and He comes the second time, "All the tribes of the earth shall mourn, that is all the JEWS who rejected Him for 2000 years and they which Crucified Him and they will be SORRY when He comes to the earth for them. (in the Rapture, He comes only to the air above the earth; when He comes after the trib He sets FOOT on the earth, a big difference between the two comings of Jesus) Upon the Jews SEEING Jesus, the truth is revealed to them and they will REPENT at that time after the tribulation. That is what the tribulation is for, the salvation of the Jewish nation. "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." Revelation 1:7

Also during that time, after the tribulation of those days, when Jesus comes BACK WITH those He removed 7 years prior, all of us will be on white horses.

"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Revelation 19:14

This event happens AFTER the 7 year tribulation when we come BACK with Jesus to fight the battle of Armageddon and defeat the beast and the false prophet. (v.20) See Joel 2 for the identification of the “armies” which come back with Jesus. They are revealed as we who were raptured 7 years prior. How could we “come back” with Him if we never left? All of what I’m saying is in the King James Bible for anyone to study and learn about.

So, there are no Christ believing people on earth for the 7 years?