Seals Trumps and Vials

Church Study Corner
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In thinking about the tribulation, the nation of Joel 1, the army of Joel 2 along with the army of Ezekiel 38-39, and Revelation, I studied this for some time and in my opinion, found some things of interest.
In going over the gospels, Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, some things are telling us the same things while others are different. Some things are in one or two of the gospels and missing in the other. Some things also relate to other books etc.
Some verses stuck out to me as dogmatic, meaning, the timing of them are so clear, at least to me, there is no other way to discern them.

Starting with Matthew 24:29, this mirrors the 6th seal. Most agree on this. It also mirrors Joel 2:10, 31, and Isaiah 13:9-10. The same event. It is also said that the 6th seal relates to the 6th trump happening around the same time frame.

One view on these verses is it is the arrival of Satan and his angels.

When we look at this verse in Matthew, Christ makes a very clear statement as to when this happens. It clearly says, “Immediately after the tribulation.” These events happen after the tribulation.
I do not see any way around this unless we ignore what it clearly says in the first 4 words. No matter what scripture says elsewhere, this time frame is dogmatic.

This means the 6th seal can not be the arrival of Satan and his angels. Nor the 6th trump the arrival of them either. Anything prior to the 6th seal is in the time frame of the tribulation. Anything past the 6th seal is after the tribulation.

Another key verse that stuck out was Joel 2:31. This verse says the events of the 6th seal happen before the great and terrible day of the Lord.
This means the 6th seal is between the tribulation and the terrible day of the Lord. We also know that Christ comes back after all the events of the tribulation and God’s wrath of the trumps and vials.

I ask myself what really is the “terrible day of the Lord.” We know from the 6th seal time frame; it can not be the tribulation. Also, Satan goes after the righteous, not the Lord. The Lord sends wrath against the unrepentant, Satan does not.
Logically putting this into the time frame, this tells us that the terrible day of the Lord is the trumps and vials.

If we know according to Christ’s statement that the 6th seal is after the tribulation, the only other thing that happens before judgement day, being wrath, is the trumps and vials.

At the end of the 6th seal the whole world is so scared knowing the wrath of the Lamb is coming they all want to hide in caves and would rather die than face it.
Since Satan comes in peacefully and with flatteries, plus the whole world celebrates sending each other gifts after Satan kills the 2 witnesses: does this sound like the arrival of the Satan event? Are they all terrified through the tribulation up to the gift giving event? Does sending gifts to each other at the end sound like his army has been running around killing men before the gift event?

The 2 Witnesses
We know the 2 witnesses are here for the last half of the tribulation. We are given the exact number of days they are here along with the exact number of days the tribulation will last.

This tells me that after they are killed and resurrected, the tribulation is over. After they are gone, there is an earthquake that destroys part of the city. When the 6th seal is opened the first thing that happens is an earthquake. I surmise this is the same one.

The killing of the 2 witnesses is the last straw. Their prophecy is over; everyone had a chance to hear the truth and most refuse it. Now comes their wrath along with the beast of Babylon. (Rev 6:17)
The sealing of protection comes first, not for knowing the truth, those who wanted it already know from the 2 witnesses, it is protection from the trumps and vials, the wrath, the terrible day of the Lord. (After the 6th seal events)

The Army
Rev 9 tells of the 6th trump army. The “horses” have horseman, riders.
We are given the description on the horseman’s breastplates and the description of the horses themselves, the “beings” that are being ridden.
The horse’s heads were like lion’s heads. The horse’s mouths issued (to break forth) fire, smoke, and brimstone, called plagues. The horse’s tails had heads too. The tails were like serpents. With them they do “injure.”
The men that were not killed by the 3 plagues still refused to repent of their sins listed.

One view of this “woe,” is that this is a deception, a flood of lies by this army. The result of this is that the men that are killed, is a spiritual death.

One problem with this view is that the horses do the issuing of these plagues, not the riders. Whatever these horses represent, they are being rode. If this is a verbal deception out of the horse’s mouths that would mean that they talk. The only time this happened historically, his name was Wilber.
Smoke, fire, and brimstone is biblically used for God’s judgement.

Another problem with this view is, can you spiritually kill an unrepentant person? They are already spiritually dead if they do not repent.

When the antichrist comes here, he is not going after the unrepentant. He already has them in his camp. We are told he goes after the woman, true Israel, (protected) and then her seed, the true church.
The trumps and vials from God are ushered in for those who refuse to repent along with the antichrist and his cohorts. Verse 19 tells us they were demon worshippers.

The 3rd problem is, if the 6th trump is the arrival of Satan and his angels, when he comes, it is peaceful with flatteries as stated before. (Daniel 11:21)

We can see the 6th trump just does not line up with his arrival. This army is told of in Joel 2, also in Ezekiel 38-39 where the players are mentioned. We know Satan is running it but God is in control of it. He “turns it,” “drive it on,” “bring it up,” and “leads it in.” Eventually it appears it is joined by the “kings of the rising sun.” (Rev 16:14)

We know the 6th seal and Matthew 24:29 are the same event and the view is they are of the arrival of Satan and his angels. From Christ’s mouth in Matthew 24:29, these events of the 6th seal are after the tribulation showing the 6th trump army is too.

Another dogmatic, time frame statement, “before all these,” made by Christ is that of Luke 21:12. The army talked about comes before the events listed in verse 8-11.

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Interesting study for sure.That alot of info there to assimilate .I have a few questions

Doesnt the 7th seal commence the trumpets? (Rev 8:1),(Rev 8:2)

Doesn’t satan arrive at the 5th trumpet? (Rev 9:12) Theres 2 more woe trumpets after that.

Dont we have both parts of the tribulation in Rev 12? A thousand two hundred and 3 score days. (Rev 12:6) and time,times and a half time (Rev 12:13) And theres (Rev 13:5) which is the same time given in (Rev 12:6) and the same length of time for the 2 witnesses.

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I say it does. I never accepted the silence mid-tribulation. The trumpets are not handed out till after the silence. In keeping with what Christ said, when the events of the 6th seal happen, opened, the tribulation is over. We know this since it appears to be the same event as Matt 24:29.

I don’t believe satan comes during any of the trumps anymore.
I also don’t believe the seals are the information for the trumps anymore either. I haven’t seen anyone match them up with any type of clarity. Even if you mix them up and take them out of order, in my opinion, you still can’t. You would have to make them as foggy as Nostradamus to match them up and you still won’t be able to match them.

I think the woes are wrath, not the tribulation. Satan goes after the righteous. God punishes the heathen and the beast.

Some say yes, others say no. The events given in Rev 12:6 is given before the war in heaven.
Some say 12:6 and 12:14 are the same event.

Rev 13:5 says the beast was given “authority to act” 42 months. (Continue isn’t in the original text)
It appears he is here for the whole tribulation but isn’t given the authority till mid-week. We know from Daniel that he is here the whole week.

My question would be, why would the “woman” need to flee the 1st half if he isn’t given his authority till mid-week? (Rev 12:6) We know he goes after the believers the 2nd half. (Rev 12:14)

Yes. It is the same time frame, the 2nd half.
Like I said earlier, does the whole world sending each other gifts sound like they are in torment, being killed by the army, hiding in caves due to the wrath? The tribulation, especially the first half seems peaceful, even for the church.

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You have obviously given this a lot of thought, and as wes said, there is much to assimilate. This could take a while, but it should be a fun study, so I think I’ll give it a shot. Just off the top of my head, I think we may be looking at two separate shakings of the heaven and earth, and I think I see a distinction between verses relating to the time of the Tribulation and the time after, IE the 7th trump. Relating to the tribulation the moon turns to blood, relating to the return of Christ, the moon is darkened. I’m not sure; I’ll have to try to make my case — or not.

The only thing I’m pretty sure of at this point is that the name of the talking horse was Mister Ed and his owner’s name was Wilber.

A horse is a horse, a horse of course, and no one can talk to a horse of course, that is of course unless the horse — is the famous Mister Ed.

Go straight to the source and ask the horse, he’ll give you the answer that you endorse, that is of course if the horse — is the famous Mister Ed. :innocent:

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Mr. Ed, right. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

Matthew 24:29 was the so-called kingpin for me.

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So what do you take as the stars falling from heaven?

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The first thing I feel we need to acknowledge is when they fall, no matter what we discuss and try to conclude as to what they represent.
Whether they are be golf balls, lawn mowers or meteors, which is what we call falling stars today, we know they fall after the tribulation.
Christ made a special point to tell us when these events happen. Even if we are correct in narrowing down what they are, if we don’t keep them in the proper time frame, anything built onto the premise after knowing what they are is flawed.

There is a collective agreement that Matt 24:29 and the 6th seal are the same. So that means the 6th seal is also after the tribulation. If these stars represent the angels, then they come after the tribulation, which in my mind, makes no sense. It also shoots down the 666 narrative, unless they all come after the tribulation.

In Rev 6:17, the whole world, global, is aware that His wrath is coming. How? This event is not only astrological but earthly. (Mountains and Islands) If every nations government collapsed in one moment, would the whole world run and hide and want to die? Makes no sense to me.

We know heaven and earth will pass away. This is stated in multiple places.
What does the heaven departing as a scroll rolled up represent? How would one in John’s time view and make sense of this event? What would he be witnessing?

My view is this event is an astrological event so tremendous, it seems as if God turns the lights out along with the physical things happening on earth.
I think we can agree most of the viewers at this time will be biblically illiterate. How would they know, in their minds, what is coming? I believe this is a visual event, not fear from knowing of the Lord’s corporal punishment which hasn’t’ started yet.

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Cool thanks for the info!

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Very interesting and profound, I wish I couldhave enough time. Too much work.
Regards!

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I think what may be giving you a little trouble is that you are conflating certain times and events. I may be able to help you sort out a couple things, but I’m still confused about some of this stuff myself.

Matthew 24:29

I agree with this part of your statement. Matt. 24:3 sets the subject — what shall be the sign of Jesus’ coming, and of the end of the world (age). Jesus nails this in the next verse when he tells us he will be returning immediately after the tribulation (Matt. 24:30). This lets us know that the 7th trump will be sounding immediately after the tribulation and the mystery of God will be finished (Rev.10:7).

The following events happen almost simultaneously; after being killed the two witnesses rise up in 3 ½ days, then 7th trump sounds, and Jesus’ foot touches down, and the events of 1Thessalonians 4:16-17 and 1Corinthians 15:52 happen. (Note: In those verses the “trump of God” is the 7th trump, and the “last trump” is the 7th trump.) At this time, we will all suddenly be back in our spirit bodies, and the Millennium age will have begun. This tells us that the stars falling from heaven in Matt. 24:29 can’t be Satan’s angels, since they will out of the picture at this time. I believe the stars falling from heaven in 24:29, are the angels and souls that will be returning with Christ in 1Thessalonians 4:16-17, Matt 24:31, and Mark 13: 25, 27.

Isaiah 13
I agree in prophetic sense Matt. 24:29 and Isaiah 13:9 is speaking of the same event.

Joel 1
I had a harder time breaking down Joel, so I’m not totally committed to this. To me, in the futuristic sense the prophecies of Joel 1 seem to cover the entire tribulation period. Joel 1:6 is similar to Rev. 9:8; the locust army places this part of Joel 1 in the first half of the tribulation, or the time period of the first woe. Then in Joel 1:13, we have the cutting off of the offering, which places it in the second half of the tribulation. Because — doesn’t Satan cut off the offering to the LORD during the tribulation of anti-christ?

Joel 2
Joel 2:1 – Here it says the day of the Lord is coming, so it’s close, but it’s not yet here.

Joel 2:3-5 – This is obviously the locust army. I think, prophetically this is describing at least the first half of the tribulation. Note the similarities to Rev. 9:7 – This could answer your question about what or who the “horses” represent symbolically; the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses. We know this is all symbolic; the locust are not locust, the horses are not horses, and there are no scorpions. They are all men, and women, set in battle array. The ones with crowns are probably the leaders. I think of a tail as “the part of an animal that follows”, and so you have leaders and those following the leaders, and all of them are in lockstep spewing their lies.

This might help — or cause more confusion. Checkout Acts 2:16-20, Peter quotes several verses from Joel 2 as being a sign of what was happening on Pentecost day, he includes Joel 2:31. I think this would indicate that the “terrible day of the Lord” is a reference to the crucifixion. So, maybe by trying to relate this part of Joel 2 to the seals and trumps, we’re looking for something that just isn’t there. I don’t know, I’m stumped.

The 6th seal and the 5th trump are describing similar events. The distinction I see between them is that with the 6th seal we have stars (plural) falling from heaven, whereas, with the 5th trump we have one star (singular). This is what is written in the Greek manuscripts, according to Green’s Interlinear and Codex Sinaiticus. (9:1Rev. And the fifth angel sounded: and I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to the earth, and to him was given the key of the pit of the abyss.) This could mean that John’s vision was not a star “falling”, but rather an angel that had already fallen to earth. I like to think of this as being Satan, just because of Rev. 9:11, however this doesn’t align with the 7th seal, or with Satan and his angels being cast out after the war in heaven. I’m obviously missing something.

At any rate, this is when “some” angel unlocks the bottomless pit and releases the locust army, and they begin tormenting those that do not have the seal of God. According to Rev. 9:5, the locust army will be here for the full duration of the tribulation. As you know, five months is the shorten version for the full seven years. And, according to Rev. 9:11 Satan is king over them, so either he is ruling from heaven, or he is already here. Either way the tribulation is underway, and it looks like things will ratchet up half way through, when the deadly wound is healed and the tribulation of Anti-Christ begins. Satan has 42 months to rule from this point to the end. (6th seal: Rev. 6:12,13) (5th trump: Rev 9:1, 3, 11)

According to Rev. 8:1 at the opening of the 7th seal there is silence in heaven for ½ hour. This is likely right after Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven; this puts their casting out at the beginning of the second half of the tribulation.

After Rev. 9:13 when the 6th trump is sounded, Satan is not mentioned directly, however the huge army mentioned in Rev. 9:16 is his minions. Since Rev. 12:7-9 and the 7th seal tells us Satan is cast out with his angels, it’s logical to conclude he is part of this group. I believe Satan and his angels, and the locust army will join forces at this time; and again, according to Rev. 9:11 Satan is their king/ruler/leader.

Based on what I covered above, I think the 6th seal marks the halfway point.

Satan still has 42 months at this point. To me Rev 6:13 (6th seal) is the arrival of Satan and his angels; who else could it be? In Rev. 6:12 we have the first shaking; the second shaking happens when Christ returns.

Again, based on what I wrote above, I vote yes.

Yes — putting it in the first half of the tribulation.

No, notice that in 12:14 the woman is being protected from the serpent/Satan — this is in the second half of the tribulation, 12:6 is in the first half.

This would be Satan’s time as the anti-christ.

I’m sure you’re right about Daniel; can you remember where I can find this? I believe Satan is here the entire time, but I’m having trouble nailing it down. I’m going to have to review some of Brandon’s lessons to refresh my memory.

Even though things start out peacefully and prosperously, once the locust army has been released from the bottomless pit, they will be out there stirring things up.

Maybe Satan is working behind the scenes in the first half of the tribulation, and when he sets out as anti-christ all hell breaks loose.

The message may have been clearer to people in John’s time than it is to us today since they were familiar with scrolls. (Rev. 6:14) Remember in Amos 8:11, when God says he will send a famine for hearing the words of the LORD. Think of a scroll as a book that must be rolled out flat to read; when it is rolled up the words are hidden. Hence, the word of God is hidden and the people become separated from heaven/God.

I don’t know if I hit on all of your points, but this is getting really really long. :slightly_smiling_face: I better get outside and do a little yard work!

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I agree with the sequence of the events here, but I don’t think His arrival is immediately after the 6th seal events. I believe there are numerous things that must happen before His return. The gospels give a brief overview of the timeline with some key verses like Matt 24:29.

That is an interesting thought which I never considered. The problem I see with it is that I don’t think Christ’s return is the wrath. The trumps are the wrath. When comparing Matt 24:29-30 with the 6th seal, His return is not mentioned in the seal, just the day of His great wrath has come. (from interlinear)
I agree the armies get His wrath but not the whole world, they get judged.

When reading Joel 1, we are told the devouring is done by a nation, verse 6. Historically it was Babylon. They had 4 main stages of invasions with the last total destruction. In the future, my take is this nation is going to be the 4th beast from Daniel 7 (Global, 6th kingdom of Rev 17) after it tramples down the first 3. Eventually it will become the 7th kingdom. (Run by the antichrist)
Joel 1 does not say they are locusts, it says they devour like locusts. We are specifically told they are a nation. Rev 9 says they are beings looking like locusts which torment, not devour. They also come from the Abyss; the army does not. Also, satan and his angels come from heaven.
When going to Joel 2, we are told this “nation” and the army devoured for years. The locust only torment 5 months.

We know satan and his angels come in peacefully with flatteries. He only takes control the 2nd half. He needs to obtain the kingdom this way.
I don’t see the woe’s as being the same entity.

The army of the 6th trump goes after the unrepentant, not the righteous. We are even told they are devil worshippers. This is why I don’t believe it is about deception; it is about punishment for being unrepentant, but they still don’t.

Ezekiel 38-39 tells of this army too. At Christ’s return they are killed by the fire brimstone and hail of Rev 16:21.

I no longer agree with this time frame. I don’t see why the 1st woe and the 2nd woe would be the same event. Scripture clearly states, “The (definite article) woe, the (definite article) first has passed, Behold are coming still two woes after these things.”

If we keep with the sequence of Rev 8 the first thing that happens is the 7th seal is opened. Then the 1/2 of silence happens.
This is correlated to the hour of tribulation due to the word “hour.” To do this, the context of the next verses has to be ignored. We have to remember that Christ had His “hour” too, but it wasn’t part of the tribulation.
We are told after this silence, only then are the trumpets handed out. If this is mid-week, and the trumpets are part of the tribulation, how would the first 5 blow when they only received them?
There appears to be some sort of prayer service in heaven and then in verse 6 the angels are only then prepared to blow. Even if the seals are the knowledge for us to know, it is still telling us the silence happens before the trumps blow.

That can’t be since we know for a certainty that the 6th seal happens after the tribulation is over. Matt 24:29 and the 6th seal being the same event.

That is the big question. But as stated before, at this event the tribulation is over so it can’t be satan and his angels. Whatever it is, it puts global fear to the people for they now know Christ’s wrath comes which I believe is the trumps.
When satan is here, those who side with him have no wrath. As mentioned earlier, the whole world parties when he kills the 2 witnesses. Does that sound like wrath from anyone?

Not sure how this can be because satan is here for the whole week as told in Daniel. He doesn’t have total control till the 2nd half after the wound is healed. The tribulation, the final week of Daniel doesn’t start till he is here, right?
That would mean Rev 12:6 can’t be the 1st half if he isn’t here. Also, why would she need protection from satan if he is not here?

I agree she is protected, and it has to be the 2nd half while he has total control. Again, if he isn’t here, it can’t be the 1st half unless the tribulation is only 1/2 of the week in Daniel which doesn’t line up.

Daniel 9:27.

This is true but Christ only opens one seal at a time. He doesn’t open up the whole thing before what is hidden under each seal is revealed.

This is precisely what this site is for.

Me too. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

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Thanks sNowflakes. Wow, you are fast, it took me a couple days to put together my reply. Your points are all well taken; I’m going to chew on them.

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Not saying I have all the pieces of the puzzle either. I just try to focus on what we know to be the dogmatic statements where they have to be and fill in from there.

Not really, have been looking at this for months now. :grin:

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sNowflakes, I accused you of conflating some issues and I see now I was doing exactly that myself. Sorry!

I just reread Brandon’s “The Tribulation Series”. I really should have reviewed it before I posted my views above. I now realize some of what I wrote is incorrect, and since I don’t want to mislead anybody, I’m asking everyone to disregard my post. For people interested in this subject I highly recommend reading the tribulation series.

https://worldeventsandthebible.com/timeline-tribulation-series

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