Discussion about the number of souls and John 3:5

One thing I’ve often wondered about - How close are we to having all the souls from the first earth age to be born of woman? And what verse was that that stated all of them needed to be born of woman? Once again…I didn’t write it down.

Hey Kay!

There’s no such verse in the Bible, and that phrase is not from the Bible either.

I can tell you, worldwide, 73 million babies are aborted every year. Not to mention the miscarried. There’s a lot of souls, it makes one wonder when God will finally call it.

You may appreciate this… Science estimates 107 billion souls existed before us, add in the 8 billion alive today, and that’s 115 billion souls. Sure, the scientific estimation is off due to their evolutionary theory. However, even if it’s off by half, there are at least 60 billion souls.

It’s enough to make your head spin!

Well that explains why I could never find it! Thank you very much for responding so quickly.

And yes, that really does make your head spin! And to think all of these souls that make it, will be here on this earth and no evil lurking. The earth restored to it’s original beauty. What a time that will be!!

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how do you understand John 3:5? (and that whole convo), in relation to “water”?

Hmmm…that must have been the verse I was thinking of. And John 3:7. I’m going to study that tonight. :slight_smile:

Hey Linda,

It concerns being baptized into the Holy Spirit.

Let’s talk about it.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

How can we be born again, how can we be born a second time?

Nicodemus was confused as well.

Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

Jesus provides the answer.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

  • How do people enter the Kingdom of Heaven?
  • How many ways can we enter into the Kingdom of Heaven?

There’s only one answer.

To accept Jesus Christ, and even be baptized with that spiritual water.

Watch how the conversation continues to flow.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If we obtain everlasting life, what does that mean?

It means we inherit the Kingdom of God. So that’s your proof. Jesus was talking about being baptized into the Spirit with water baptism. Just as Jesus was baptized with water, better said, the Holy Spirit, (Joh 1:33).

Hello Brandon, so this seems to indicate that there will be water baptism in the millennium, or how will that work for those that do not get baptized in the flesh portion of this earth age? I thought all of those in the millennium will literally “see” the kingdom.

In reading Luke 23:40-43, it appears that the physical baptism isn’t an absolute for entering into the physical kingdom. Christ assured the criminal he would be with Him that day in paradise and it seems to follow that he was not baptized physically.

Could this be, the same as the circumcision, now of the heart?

This discussion brings other thoughts into play for me. If we were all in the 1st age, then the fall, and this flesh age is basically a do over,??? wouldn’t all the, then 1st age souls, have to arrive here being born of women to make their choice? The fallen came here incorrectly.

If this is not the case, then in my mind the 1st age teachings need to be reexamined.


The criminal on the cross was certainly not baptized. That one always comes into my mind. The entire point of John 3:3 is what, being “born again,” only into the Spirit (spiritual water). When we are born, we are not born into the Spirit until we accept God and Christ. So it’s about accepting Jesus Christ. A few verses later, John 3:16 makes that clear, right?

It’s not about being “born of woman,” that’s some man’s theology, not God’s.

The basic tenant of salvation is belief, not baptism.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

We see belief in all three verses here.

Concerning “the world that then was” as explained in 2 Peter 3:6, Biblical theologians all understand that Satan fell from the grace of God. The debate is when did that occur? Some think it was in the garden, some think it was before Genesis 1:1.

On a Christian radio station, they had these quick 30 second messages from a Pastor. He said, a third of mankind fell at Satan’s fall. I forget what inspirational message he tied it into, but he seemed to understand there was a great fall that affected humanity, and it wasn’t anytime within the last 10k years.

Michael and Gabriel have always been Angels, I’m sure there is a good reason.

Lastly, if you look up Biblical theology, you will see there are (and were) a lot of scholars who believe the earth is old. It’s just not as popular as the young earth doctrine of today. Look up Biblical commentaries, some of them will provide you with some extra insight.

Kay: I do think it applies to the bag of waters, but not limited to that “flesh” aspect, as spirit is also required. I think this is one of the verses that some apply to “must be baptized” or “baptism is required”. A womb baby indeed has the bag of waters covered. Thinking on that, I start wondering exactly what that little brain in the womb might actually “think” at that time. My pastor taught all souls must come thru—maybe that’s wrong, but I don’t think so. The fallen ones had the same op as everyone else, and look what they rather chose. We know and have report of many (Esau and Jeremiah come to mind) as to where they came from—why would not all the souls have same op?

Just popping in to let you all know, I haven’t disappeared from this conversation! I’m having to take care of some things for my mom and try to get organized over here. I have been praying and thinking about all of this and will join back in soon!! Love this topic!

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it’s given to man (to live) and die once (Heb 9:27). Well, Elijah clearly was not in that order—not yet anyway. It’s not written whether “archangels” will be or not born into flesh, is it? Where? It is written that some came to earth without going through the bag of waters—and we are told of their end. And, they had memory of where they came from when they came here.

I too believe the earth is older than what some say.

I would think the fall happened before the garden. If the 12 tribes were to be a peculiar people to bring the message of God to the world, then that implies to me that the fall already took place. We know the other races, or peoples were here, before the garden, since Cain feared them.

If the whole point of the flesh age is a do over, because of the fall, then the fall had to occur before the age started.
If the fall happened after the garden, what was the purpose of the garden before the fall. To my thinking, Christ was not needed in the flesh yet, if there was no fall at this time. Also, why start a flesh age if the fall didn’t happen yet?

Something else I have trouble with, why did God let Satan walk the earth after the fall? Also, why after the first influx, did He allow more?
Especially after the fall and what Satan did in the garden, why would the fallen have an avenue to get here? And, when did that door shut?

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Where does it say that in the Bible?

When Jesus said,

“Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

You take that to mean, you have to be born in the flesh, unlike the fallen angels.

  • Can you tell me where in the Bible it says that?
  • Where are fallen angels mentioned or referenced in John 3?

Moreover, if you are correct,

  • Why did Jesus explain this to Nicodemus?
  • How is that relevant to Nicodemus and those listening?
  • Did Jesus think Nicodemus was a fallen angel?

Jesus was talking to human beings, so there would be no point in Him saying, or trying to convey to Nicodemus, that you have to be born in the flesh, unlike the fallen angels. That’s simply false doctrine you are bringing to the forum.

Folks, I love you, but let’s have real Christian conversation here.

  • “born of woman”
  • “bag of waters”
  • “first influx”
  • “first earth age”
  • “four hidden dynasties”

Let’s be honest with each other, you’re parroting what you were told by a Pastor.

Now if I’m wrong, then please show me in the Bible where these terms come from. If you cannot do that, then let’s please drop them, and use Biblical terms so all Christians can understand what it is we are talking about. Otherwise, it’s like we’re speaking in Greek.

It seems to me Nicodemus had a limited understanding, but not a totally “out in left field” understanding. I doubt he did understand several things such as “born from above”…but maybe he heard that as “again” as well. John 3: 1 starts the convo. There were many people that needed a teacher at that time. John 3:13 fills in even more information. One thing we do know, is that baptism is not brought up or implied in this context at all. That which is born of flesh ( [Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.) To me, flesh is what comes from the bag of waters via conception. And I can only assume the word “and” means additionally…so both conditions water and Spirit (which is via John3:16).

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You didn’t answer the questions Linda, which are critical to the conversation.

By reading John 3:3, John 3:16, Romans 10:9, it should become clear, the idea is spiritual acceptance of Christ. We are born in the flesh, but that doesn’t grant you the “Kingdom of God,” not until you spiritually accept Him as outlined in the 16th verse. All that means is there must come a spiritual change within ourselves.

For what it’s worth, I never saw a scholar not see it this way. Even Bullinger gets it with his note on John 3:5,

of water, &c. = of water and spirit. No Art. Figure of speech Hendiadys (App-6). Not two things, but one, by which the latter Noun becomes a superlative and emphatic Adjective, determining the meaning and nature of the former Noun, showing that one to be spiritual water: i.e. not water but spirit. It is to be rendered “of water-yea, spiritual water”. Compare Eph 5:26, and See Joh 7:38, Joh 7:39 and Eze 36:25-27 for the “earthly things” of Joh 3:12.

If we were talking about literal water baptism and belief, the Bible would contradict itself. Jesus is the water of life, we obtain it by accepting Him, which means we obtain “the Kingdom of God.”

I thought I did answer. Yes, there is only “spiritual acceptance” of Christ, but coming thru the flesh in this first section of this earth age is “how” that choice can be made. And that choice may not even get an opportunity in the flesh, and so then Father setup the millennium opportunity (that’s not exactly written that way–so I just say I think that). I read that one condition does not grant the kingdom—both (flesh via water condition and Christ) must happen. But I’m just a simple English reader when the read is simple anyway. I have looked at Bullinger’s understanding here.


actually, I didn’t parrot the “dynasties”, but rather put that in my own words. Did pastor give a suggestion by applying “dynasty” for a descriptor? yes…but I do think the horns are what I said somewhere here. I relate those powers as to “what” their end goal is. I just thought in simplest terms and related the scriptural information given from the city builder, to nimrod, to babylon, to beast #1 (and that Rev 17:9-11 excerpt). Then I looked at a “family” unit…“organizational structure” and it applied easily. (edit: I have not read your understanding of the 4 horns of Zech and associated carpenter’s work. I look forward to that share.)

Well, I caught up on all the responses here finally. I did read John Chap 3 and then some last night, but I will be reading it again tonight. And of course praying about it.

I’m leaning towards what Brandon is saying regarding that John 3 is referring to baptism. With that being said, it’s hard to grasp onto a different belief after you’ve believed something else for so long.

This is a very interesting point!

This is what I believe also.

I think God let satan walk the earth after the fall to show satan that He is giving His children total freewill. No scripture to back that up…but that’s what came to my mind. As far as when that door shut - maybe it isn’t? Now I’m going to have to add that to my list of things to keep in mind as I study.

I get what you are saying with some of those, but for the first earth age…should we use “the world that was”? And it might be hard not to let those terms slip in once in awhile, especially if you have been studying with him for decades. But I do understand what you are saying - it would be hard for others to understand.

And now it’s late and I’m going to do some more studying. I think this is an excellent thread and love that we can all discuss it like adults. So much better than in FB groups!

Edited to add:
Decided to add to my response from last night after much prayer and meditation. When we come to a point in the bible where people have different beliefs on a topic, it’s an opportunity for us to re-think that belief and discuss with like-minded Christians. It’s always good to step back and ask questions on why we believe something. If there are differences between us, that’s okay. It still brought an awareness of the topic and something for us to keep in the back of our minds as we continue to study other parts of the bible. God bless all of us that have contributed to this discussion and pray for His guidance to lead us to truth. I know one thing - we will ALL know the meaning when God wants us to - it’s all in His perfect timing.

“And what verse was that that stated all of them needed to be born of woman?” So, one place that Christ tied this together is in John—gently explaining the “procedure” (plan) in this aspect. This fills in “that we came from God” or rather “I knew you before you entered your mother’s womb” (Jere, I think), and then of course the “hatred” of baby Esau. We know satan will not be born of woman and becasue “at least” its because he has already been condemned to death. He had a high position (defender of Mercy Seat), and I think folks like Gabriel and Michael might have/had high duties as well–if so, there might be reason why they would not need to come through this EA–they have work in the Kingdom/Heaven. So, I too, would like to know if there are other direct verses about “born FROM above”. It seems like this was either new info that was meant for Christ to bring forth…as it relates to He releasing the prisoners while in the “grave”—they had not had that John 3:16 opportunity, but they did come thru the flesh. I find no holes in the “theology” of understanding coming through the flesh (via, bag of waters). But I will read what the family has to say—