no. the four horns are simply 4 powers that build that whore “city” at the end(actually, 4 powers are minimally required for ANY human society construct (whether the smallest grouping of “family” to the largest grouping of “global”…mystery Babylon. So, instead of the captivity by another nation (like those nations that felled Israel and Judah, which were fully formed nations/group) back in the day…this end time captivity (to Satan) involves the whole globe, and still the powers exist to create a global grouping of man…eventually to have satan as it’s ruler (similar to a theocracy). any grouping of man, consists of religion-belief/governing/economic(exchange of resources–even “chores” by the kids)/and education (regardless of how information is communicated). Since the horns at the end act the same as what happened to the Houses of Israel and Judah, just a different way and takes longer… So, the word carpenter is used to “match” with the word “horn”…but when we know that “horn” is power, then we must look at the activity a carpenter does to “power”.
I use the term “governing” horn rather than “politics” because politics can mean other things…such as this example: office politics versus office policy…two different things, or political theater, or other antics…this is not the real "horn
/power. We have actually locked this in–not hidden, but in plain site, with the governing horn “agencys” either directly or funded only, have come against speech (for example). Speech can actually be a fruit (one of those fruits of the spirit. So, the controversy is belief (religion horn) which can be visual in speech (education/information horn)… the captivity is being built by the 4 horns, rather than a whole entity already existing fully (like The Assyria or The Babylon… actual full nations) . So as the structure IS Being built (beast #1), it’s done by the 4 horns…so the fraying is when there is something to fray.
I agree and understand that the horns are the powers to be that build the last days Babylon, slowly being put in place today. (Global) As you said, back then, it was individual nations, controlling the area of Israel and Judah. The carpenters fray those powers in the end.
Who are you saying the carpenters specifically are?
What I was saying it seems it has to be something supernatural to have an effect on the global system, the whore, to really have an effect of that magnitude. (Terror etc.) Or supernatural abilities given to someone of something to make that effect. (Like the 2 witnesses)
I am suspecting people like Tucker, others in the health science fields that pushed back against mandating poison (consider rev 18:23), and some in the econ fields, and even many who have been banned from platforms due to their content that pushes against evil pressures applied on we (real Isreal). I zero in on the topics addressed from persons that might not even be “sealed”. But…im still watching this…I know people have beefed about things…but I think the “heat” this past 7 or so years is significant. Actually, i would suggest that tucker interview with Mike Benz. In that one…anomalies were presented… So usually, a war against an opposing army was fought with arms/weapons and dealt with flesh…this one (war) is different, but the war is still to be(we know this, as because of the delivering up-ultimately)
See what you started Linda? 
This is great; I love reading what deep thinkers like you and sNOwflakes have to say. For what it’s worth, I think you are both right. I think the supernatural element is at work right now, but it will become more obvious the closer we get to the tribulation and as it plays out.
To me the four horns represent the four “powers that be” at the time, which either drove, or are driving God’s children away from the Father. Whither they are the same today as in Zachariah’s I’m not certain.
However, the four powers which have been at work for some time now, are plain to see, at least in my opinion. They are: The Governmental horn, which will ultimately lead to the one-world (1st beast) system. Financial horn, which feeds the various world governments. Think taxation, the FED and the World Banks, etc. chomp, chomp, chomp! Educational horn, remove prayer, dumb down and indoctrinate, which ultimately leads to more people to relying on government rather than God. Religious horn, this goes beyond the Christian church, which is a mess; this engulfs all the worlds religions. Why do the heathens rage? Psalms 2:1, Acts 4:25. The heathens will continue to rage more and more, especially against God’s elect who have been sealed.
I need some help with the carpenters, because Zech 1:20 says there are four and I don’t find them as easy to identify. I feel the two witnesses and the 144,000 are carpenters, but beyond them I don’t know.
If I were to compare the carpenters to tradesmen, I would say the two witnesses are “Master Craftsmen”; the 144,000 are “Journeyman”, and all the people that are sealed after hearing the Masters and Journeymen, and have come out of confusion, are “Apprentices”. During the tribulation they will all be working toward the same end, which is to pull as many souls out of the fire as possible. In so doing, they all become frayers to some degree.
I see a difference between these carpenters and people like Tucker. God’s carpenters will be laser focused on teaching God’s word, especially warning of the impending return of the True Christ. At this point in time, Tucker and others like him are frayers in the sense that they are like dogs nipping at the heel; they are a thorn in the side to those in power, and annoyance because they are slowing down their big plans.
I think it’s fun listening to people that dare shine the light on hypocrisy. I’m going to enjoy it while I can because I know when God feels it’s time for his plan to move forward, the horns will silence these people— and then we can concentrate strictly on what the carpenters have to say.
I’m not sure what this has to do with the topic “Did Russia just threaten to nuke the west?”, but it was fun.
I agree. I think there is much truth in both. I think some of it rides on the actual definition of fray, which one of the many was intended.
If we use “to shudder with terror”, then I picture it would to be an event like the men hiding in the rocks and caves, afraid to come out and face judgement. Which I don’t think anyone who is on national tv could cause this.
But then if we use the lower on the scale fear terms, it could be anyone, like Linda speaks of, even “hasten or be careful” which those exposing the lies would tend to do.
One thing for certain, and this is the real beauty of it all, we don’t have to worry at all which one it is. Let them rage now and cry later.
and Snow—I agree with your 4 horn “definitions”…but I think for education we must include all manners of informing someone else (which is “comms” including media, and books–outside of “formal edu”). For the religion, yes…all formal “religions” but I even include beliefs and philosophies, so as to capture the humanist (atheist), and agnostics. So, i relate the 4 (to match the 4 in the horns/powers) to same as carpenters (can’t be “smiths” because smiths deal with iron, whereas a carpenter can deal with a range of other “materials” and is very close to an “engineering” mind (how to make things work). So, the skillset of each carpenter would be they work on and within the various horns/powers. Even Daniel was an accountant (so to speak) within Babylon. For the fraying…we see that when an animal’s horns are “altered” in fighting (for example) it is called a “frayed horn” and you can find a picture of that from that very label. Yes, the horn could get frayed just by foraging, but usually the fray is from battling. And yes, I did start this…I want to see what others think on the carpenter. I like the way my pastor said it once…“they procure” the elect", which means they get them what they need, and also their action is as active as they need to be to fray horn.
i went into fray a little in response to Old…on how i see that
in regards to “small groups”. What I’m trying to say, is that all groupings from the smallest (the family unit) to the largest (which will be global) have the 4 horns inherent to their existence. There cannot be a grouping without at least these 4 powers/horns in active reality. So, look at family, and in order for that family to continue to even exist, they must have the basic “elements” within. It’s how Cain even became a builder of cities (a little larger group than just family)…he used the 4 elements/powers that exist. Father was sure to tell us, that “oh, by the way, Cain became a builder of cities”. Does not mean that only he can build cities…people/tribes/areas in land in general build cities or communities.
I take all your points of view. Is it your opinion that the major effects (fraying) will primarily be during the trib time frame?
No, I think the fraying is prior to what I consider the trib of A/C (which I think is when he is actually here)…at least within the last original 7 years (which I don’t think was shorted). I know…there is disagreement on this last 7 year and the shortening. They give the info needed to procure the elect and those that stand against a/c when he is here. I’m not sure that the carpenters are sealed…I don’t think they are, but maybe some sealed are within. If we did not have carpenters, I would maybe say we are totally within a matrix, and I don’t believe that. It’s possible, that even the deadly wound gets energy from the carpenters.
Many good points have already been about the four horns so I’m going to leave them aside concentrate on the word “carpenters”. I’m just thinking out loud here, trying to be like a Berean so feel free to tear it apart.
We know the word “carpenters” is symbolic, so I tried figure out who the “carpenters” they are, and what is their purpose.
First I looked at the word carpenters, it was translated from the Hebrew word charash (H2796) which is a masculine noun derived from the verb charash (H2790).
(H2796) noun charash: engraver, artificer. Meaning: a fabricator, any material.
The noun charash H2796 can mean artificer, which is a skilled craftsman, in any material. In other words, it could mean carpenter, mason, metal smith etc. But look at what the verb means from which H2796 was derived? It means “to cut in” or “engrave”, now look at the number one meaning for H2796, it’s engraver.
(H2796) is from (H2790) verb charash: to cut in, engrave, plow, devise. Meaning: to cut in, engrave, plow, devise.
It seems to me that the word carpenters used in Zechariah 1:20 would have been better translated engravers. To reinforce my theory, I searched for other places where H2796 was used and noticed a few interesting things. I think this could be a “type” for the engravers/carpenters in the futurist sense, except those in the future will not be dealing with material things; they will be dealing with spiritual things.
In Exodus we are introduced to a man named Aholiab; Exod. 38:23 shows us that, among other things, Aholiab was an engraver.
In Exod. 31:1,2,3,4,5,6, we learn that: *God speaks to Moses *God calls Bezaleel—by name, *Bezaleel is fill with the spirit of God *God calls by name Aholiab to work with Bezaleel.
So, here we have two people that God himself has chosen and called out by name to serve Him. That sounds like the definition of God’s elect, they were called and chosen.
Now let’s see what their job was. Exod. 35:30,34, As you can see, God called them forth to teach. Now think about who they are teaching. They’re teaching skilled craftsmen & women (artificers) who have come forth willingly to do the work commanded by God. Exod. 36:2; they were invited and came forth; they sound a lot like Saints.
This was in the past when Moses and the children of Israel were building the tabernacle. If this a type, then we have to bring it forward and determine who the engravers/carpenters/craftsmen might be analogous to in the end times, understanding that in the future they will be dealing with things of the mind rather than the hand, that is, spiritual rather than material. Let’s look at the origin of a few words found in verse 35 and see if we can gain any insight.
Exod. 35:35, Them hath he filled with wisdom of heart, to work all manner of work, of the engraver. “Them” is referring to Bezaleel and Aholiab, and wisdom means just that, wisdom.
Heart = leb (H3820) a form of lebab (H3825): Both meaning; inner man, mind -----
Work = (H4399) occupation, Meaning: deputyship, ministry, employment, work, property. From the same as mal’ak (H4397) = From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically, of God, i.e. An angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher).
We have already defined the word engraver above, but let’s break it down a little further.
At the time of 2 Chr. 2:13,14 Solomon is in the process of building a house for the LORD and is once again calling together craftsmen. In verse 14 the word “grave” is used; this word describes what an engraver does.
Grave = pathach (H6605): A primitive root; to open wide (literally or figuratively); specifically, ----- (en-)grave(-n) -----.
Exod. 28:11, this is another place H2796, engraver is used. Look at how the LORD says he wants these engravings done, “like the engravings of a signet”. It’s interesting that word signet was used, check out what it means.
Signet = chotham *(H2368) *: a seal, signet ring; from chatham *(H2856) *: to seal, affix a seal, seal up
Let’s take a look at what we have: * a messenger; specifically, of God, *to open wide, *mind, *a seal.
With those words in mind, I thought about what or who might we be watching for? Perhaps a certain type of holy person/persons, (By their fruit you will know them), who are solely focused on opening minds, and sealing them with plan of God.
It should be noted that Zechariah 1:20 in Green’s interlinear uses the word “craftsmen”. This would be all encompassing, rather than singling out engravers or carpenters. It’s the same word for all three in Hebrew, H2796.
If we were to accept this as a type for carpenters in the last days, then I believe this would make Bezaleel and Aholiab analogous to the two witnesses, and the craftsmen, who they are directing, analogous to the 144,000. However, if we think of the carpenters in terms of groups, this will only account for two carpenters.
Something sNOwflakes said about the definition of fray got me thinking. Fray does mean to shudder with terror, but it can also mean to make afraid or discomfit. Discomfit meaning to make someone feel uneasy or embarrassed, especially by frustrating their plans or expectations.
Fray (H2729): = A primitive root charad: to shudder with terror. Strong’s Concordance; be make afraid, be careful, discomfit, fray away -----
I think initially the horns are made afraid, but they are not terrified. They will do everything they can to silence the carpenters, like throwing them in jail and bringing them before judges. This will be lawfare on steroids! It can be document that the Gentiles/Nations/four horns are still not terrified at the time the two witnesses are killed, we know this because they will be making merry and sending gifts to one another. Rev. 11:10
The terror starts to strike in the next verse when the two witnesses rise and ascend into heaven. Rev. 11:11, the words “great fear” mean terror. This also when Christ returns with his angels; notice the word “affrighted” in this verse Rev. 11:13, this word also means terrified. So, this is when the real terror begins and for this reason, I think the final two carpenters could be Christ himself, (wasn’t he a carpenter.) and his angels.
I think the pastor’s suggestion that the carpenters procure the elect fits right into this.
That’s all I got; thank the LORD! I didn’t set out to write a novel; sorry about that.
I like the work you have done here. I too think the terror only starts at the very end or near there, but we will have to see.
I also think the elect or those like them, as Linda points out can be a stumbling block for the building of the global system, but we know that it does get built to the point of the deadly wound. We don’t know how long it is established before it falls.
Yes, stumbling block, like little mine bombs on the fiber…or shredding/fraying of horns
I took did all that you did here, and then investigated if an animal’s horns do fray…they do, and it’s common knowledge in the animal science folks
Yes, I did all but I then reversed back…starting with the literal of horn and fraying, then took that to the analogous. Works both ways.
I agree with your points Linda. I sure wouldn’t bet the farm on my theory being correct. More than anything I found the things I uncovered interesting, but a person could probably connect the dots several different ways.