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I just started doing true individual study about a year ago. The gratification you feel after is probably one of the most amazing things I have ever experienced. I know that sounds over the top, but to have that feeling inside as you discover more (or I should say that God allows you to see) is phenomenal. Just getting a deeper understanding.
And that statement was me a year ago!! In my prayers @Angieleah - I know you got this!
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Welcome aboard Angela!
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I am from this area, grew up in Southern Virginia, Tennessee area. I’m Melungeon on my Dad’s side. With SC I have believed they were of the 10 trides that went north.Everything I find online says sub-Saharan Africans. (Dont necessarily believe what I see online, just saying, hard to find anything or anyone telling the truth) Thank you for this , I have seen it years ago. Will listen again with note pad and bible open. Angie 
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Thank you Kay!!! I need it and a good kick in the rear. Im greatful God is still talking to me.
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Hello Donna, I’m not sure why you posted this?
The video focused on the idea that Israelites came to America long ago. Maybe they did, but that’s irrelevant to what I pointed out.
Murray said he was the “first” to “properly” translate the Bat Creek Stone (that’s one point of ten in the discussion).
According to who?
There is no official record, or any record that mentions Murray associated with the stone. In fact, Murray never provided any evidence himself. Only that “yours truly” translated it.
Translating the stone to his audience doesn’t make him the first person to properly translate the stone. Murray has zero name recognition among scholars.
Moreover, Murray isn’t even the first person to come up with the idea it’s Hebrew. According to Professor McCulloch, in the 1960s, some thought the Bat Creek Stone was Hebrew. Even the “reversed resh.” Some say it’s Hebrew, some say it’s Cherokee, but most say it’s a hoax.
Regardless, the point is Murray has no scholarly credit to this as he claimed. A claim used to bolster his credibility to his audience. I say this respectfully, let’s please focus on the point of this post, and not derail it for those who are frustrated with what they are learning. If you want to continue the discussion, I can open a new thread if you like.
Brandon,
I just posted it to show how he translated it, which I thought was interesting. His ministry helped open my eyes to a lot of things. I am not here to judge him, or worship him but to thank him for pushing me in the right direction.
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To be clear, no one is judging him. You asked me why I said it’s a false church and I answered you.
I must say, every Christian on the planet has learned lots of positive things from their church. Regardless of the denomination. Many of us will disagree on theological positions. Yet, we are not talking about theological positions here. We are talking about fabrications. Even rapture churches do not willfully lie to their congregation. That’s the difference.
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Whoa. A lot to unpack in here. I clicked on this b/c we are studying Frist Timothy, about this. If there’s one thing we’ve been taught, or Paul taught --watch out for false Doctrine. I’ve come to realize that many things or beliefs in this world are false (of course they are); however, I’m grateful to also see. I know this, if you ask and discern, He will reveal. No man will ever replace GOD’s BREATHED Word and the Holy Spirit’s ability to give wisdom and understanding.
2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”
As for myself and our world, I’m learning to consider it all joy. It’s not fun or easy to re-evaluate or correct oneself, but surly rewarding and free. In the last couple of years, I make it a point to pray that I am not deceiving myself - I want to know the truth at all costs🙏
Sorry for whatever brought this up or tough topic. By the same means, this is why I love a place like this…to share views, perspectives, testimony, trials and joys. We are all at different stages in our walk, not better, not worse. I’m just thankful for other people that love Jesus like I do❤ I honestly believe God is calling His sheep🐑 to regather and encourage one another for such a time as this.
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Very well stated! And I agree that correcting oneself is hard but the reward is worth it. I pray that I don’t deceive others, but praying that you don’t deceive yourself is just as important - glad you brought that one up!
This community is really a blessing to me. I just can’t do the FB group discussions any longer. So many trolls…even in the other groups. It’s crazy over there!!
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I started reading from the beginning and am taking other notes, using the appendixes thoroughly, Strong’s and my addition is the Interlinear, using the original Hebrew.
One thing I found when studying, is to clear the mind as if you never opened scripture before, never heard anything before, etc.
Not that what you know is wrong, could be, but if your head is focused on what you already know, and you try to add or delete from it, there is no room for the spirit to give you something else. The different angles are hard to see. You will be amazed at what you will find.
Sometimes it is easier to understand something by eliminating what you know it isn’t. Regrouping holding on to a flawed building block, even small, throws everything off.
If there is one thing that seems off or doesn’t fit, it probably is, and you need to go back and start over with the subject. This can be the hard part, swallowing your error and someone else’s.
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Not to split hairs here, but 2:7 is actually from H120
הָֽאָדָ֗ם man
The first occurrence of 121 proper name Adam is in ch 4:25 אָדָ֥ם which occurs only six times in the entire bible in that exact form. ref. Hebrew Concordance: ’ā·ḏām -- 6 Occurrences
What I did fine interesting is the quick mention by PM of 4:33 in the video you posted he stated there was a ruddy man created on that day as well, but wasn’t going to elaborate in that video.
Anyway, I can understand your dismay after studying with them and actually visiting them at Passover 10 years . But as one who isn’t nearly as emotionally invested with SC, I personally think much of PM methods etc should be taken in context.
To the ministry’s credit they haven’t made themselves millionaires out of their global telecast which they could have easily done. Others with far less reach are prime examples.
Although there are many times and ways PM & SC have either contradicted themselves or continued with errors of those they emphatically disagree with in a meta-narrative sense, the over all gospel message has no doubt helped countless who find very little truth in mainstream orthodoxy.
Examples are waffling back and forth on the extent of the flood, and the races being included on the ark as a possibility would qualify as special pleading to say the least. Also the implications of adhering to dispensationalist understanding of Dan 9:24 -27 is disastrous to Christ’s fulfillment of OT prophecy. ie Isaiah 53 et al And PM Modalistic explanation of the false trinity doctrine etc.
Having said that, PM comes from an era where the winds were blowing very hard in prophetic error, and his “old school” style, particularly from the south should be taken into account IMO. I’m in my mid 60s and his generation is one that had a tendency of dogmatism and authoritarianism.
Not to excuse outright deception, but quite frankly we have no way of knowing if his falsehoods were intentional, or if he thought he could defend them if given the time etc. Scholars have disagreed on passages of scripture and written entire books on one single verse or phrase for crying out loud, so categorizing a statement as a lie, whether intentional or not seems a bridge too far IMO.
One other point in closing is when using Strong’s or any other concordance or lexicon one must remember that they too are given to human error, bias and doctrinal presuppositions.
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Hey Zac,
What you said is a bit irrelevant, but Adam is H121 in Genesis 2:19 (אָדָם), the same as in Genesis 4:25 (אָדָם). Moreover, as I already explained, H120 is the word used for mankind in general. So we can’t pick and choose here.
- How exactly should Christians take flat-out lies in context?
- Why are you commenting on their finances which you know nothing about?
- Why are you making excuses for them?
I’m actually baffled that a couple of people on here are actually making excuses for a Christian preacher who lied to gain an audience.
When we talked about Paula White recently, I didn’t see a soul come to her defense. When we got after the preacher closing prayer in “a-men and a-women,” not a soul came to his defense, as it’s indefensible. Instead, I only see defense here. Why? There’s a vested interest. It’s no different than followers of White, who would also come to her defense.
For Heaven’s sake, where is our Christian backbone?
Are we going to cover for men or God?
Again, I think some people are having a hard time understanding lies from doctrinal beliefs. They are two different things. That church believes in a global flood, that’s fine, no issues. Why? That’s their belief and they never dove into the details.
However, lying to congregants as outlined in my list of 10 to make Christians believe is the problem. That does not help people. In fact, it hampers said believers, as when they are challenged, they have no answer and/or they go on with blind faith. That doesn’t help anyone and it makes a mockery of our faith.
It’s “outright deception,” but you don’t know if “his falsehoods were intentional”?
That statement contradicts itself.
You will notice, five of the ten items on my list do not even concern Biblical doctrine. Instead, they are outright lies; the description of Jesus letter, the footprint, the instant mammoth freeze, his first-hand account of NASA, and the Bat Creek stone.
All outright lies as I shared, their intent is clear as can be. It’s obvious, he lied plain and simple.
The first two list items do concern Biblical doctrine, and even they are outright lies. Ones in which he clearly knew. He knew “eth-ha-adam” was not “emphatic” for “the man Adam.” He knew Hebrew, he knew Adam did not mean “ruddy.” He chose to lie about those things to make people believe his doctrine. The same thing for item 3, 9, and 10. Scripture was twisted and distorted to fit a narrative.
Many of the people who study/studied with that church are the same ones quick to put down rapture believers. Saying how they’re deceived, it’s a big fun joke for many of them. Yet, it’s that same group that has been presented with the fact they were deceived, by a deceiver, and they cannot even grasp it.
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Not sure where your resource is, but here is has 2:19 as H120 and 4:25 as the first of 6 usages of 121. Here is my resource: 2:7 hā·’ā·ḏām 4:25 ’ā·ḏām
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I get your point, but does anyone know he didn’t actually believe them?
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This speaks to integrity, and yes I have checked as they are a non-profit. One only has to examine their homes, lifestyles etc to see the contrast to most televangelists who’s homes are in the millions, etc etc.
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I’m not making excuses, merely saying I believe he/they teach numerous errors, but I personally don’t know their intentions for doing so.
What I meant was I wasn’t intending to excuse outright deception if it were intentional and malicious. But I don’t know nor does anyone else know his true motives for teaching or saying things we see as false.
If as you say, his motives were to gain a larger audience. What then were his reasons for wanting a larger audience? More money? If so, he certainly didn’t take advantage of the situation, and he certainly seemed clever enough to do so.
Was his motive simply ego? Wanting to be highly regarded by other? Hmmm, doesn’t seem likely either. Most of his contemporaries thought he was a quack. His small local gathering already thought highly of him, was he just on an ego trip for as many worldwide as he could get? He had a large enough following he could have had books ghost written which would’ve made the NY best seller list if he wanted.
Or, did he simply rationalize these things in his own mind to the point that he felt justified to whatever extent in order to justify his actions.
My point is we simply don’t know, and calling them lies by extension him a liar implies intent, which I personally don’t find justifiable.
I don’t listen or study their material, (I’ve checked it out in the past) and don’t have a horse in the race.
I’ve found that whenever a ministry or a man is put on a par with infallibility, or anything close to it, disappointment looms at the door.
As an addendum no doubt the ministry has help a multitude further their study of scripture and their relationship with God and His Christ.
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Note: If you would like to get into the specifics of H120, we can in another post, but not here. H120 and H121 are the same Hebrew word.
You’re making excuses, lots of them.
I’m not a detective Zac, my point isn’t to tell you why he did it. That’s on him, his son, and the church. My point was to tell you he lied and I provided plenty of evidence. Any rational person can see that, any rational person can see he purposefully lied.
I can tell you from first-hand experience, I have seen that ministry destroy lives. By telling people they are “chosen” for a purpose, to speak against the antichrist. That’s all many of his adherents did, is wait, their life ended waiting, and looking for the non-existent kenite behind every bush.
How many more lives did they destroy by roping in unsuspecting believers?
You can spot one of that church’s adherents a mile away on the internet. More often than not, they are rude, and they speak down to people, a perfect mirror of their teacher, who did the same to them before.
You come here saying you don’t have a horse in the race, but you clearly do. You know many details of the church or claim too. It’s clear, you do have a vested interest here and you’re trying to lighten the impact by making excuses. That’s our problem these days brother, we make excuses when we hear what we don’t want to hear, and we have no accountability anymore.
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Not sure why you would say this. What interest would I have in someone I don’t study with or agree with much of his unorthodox beliefs? His belief that Eve had sex with Satan, and at least some of his followers believe that Adam did also is nigh on flat earth territory.
I’ve heard the claim of the rudeness of some of his students. Seems I read it from one of the big apologist sites in response to their attacks against PM. Although those types always get the attention, likely the majority are much more “normal” in demeanor.
I know of them because I spend what would be considered a full time career doing research, studying etc. I bumped into SC on cable, (which I no longer have) a few years ago and found his position against the rapture doctrine refreshing on television. As for his more unique teachings, I find them often a mixture of truth and hyperbole. His methods are also quite sloppy, not to mention his conclusion require presupposition.
I suspect after the years of association with the ministry you have close friends impacted by the false teaching. That’s a shame, and I don’t pretend to diminish it or even understand. The looking for a kenite behind every tree is something I’ve seen play out in some of the off shoot websites etc. But then again, people eat up sensationalism. And much of that blame falls on themselves as they can take someone’s teaching and blow it out of proportion in practice.
I wasn’t going to reply on this but feel I have to share my experience as it might help others.
Coming from a Christian home, the church in my day was not very instructional. Later in life, I was introduced to the PM studies. Seemed very knowledgeable and almost had a photographic memory with scripture.
Being very hungry for the truth, not even knowing what Strong’s was, it was exciting. Finally, I could understand. Being of a mechanical and logical mind, having math skills etc., things would have to add up.
It didn’t take long before my shelf was too full and needed iron supports. I also longed for the area where all the 6th graders lived so I could study with them.
Going against my normal procedures, (my fault alone) I accepted some things as true to move forward with studying, (after all, I was a newbie, who was I to disagree with the learned) having questions along the way of things that scripturally did not add up, and I mean blatant things.
Being a member of one of the major sites, I asked questions. It didn’t take long till I realized all the ones I came into contact with had no answers. These were with the chapel for 10+ years. This site eventually split, since Trump was Jehu, the worlds savior, and that didn’t fly with everyone, etc., etc.
On the next site, the same thing started all over again. You could see the frustration and anger when they talked themselves into a corner with no scriptural escape. All they did was memorize the narrative answers and copy and paste.
The answers were either Pm said, or the verse was just repeated, as if I couldn’t read, or call the chapel and they can explain it to you. Some of the answers were so off the wall, I started to think I was crazy.
I was told I probably wasn’t sealed, (sooooooooo I would be fooled at the 6th, I wasn’t worth the time to teach, and basically it was too late for me. After all, those who understood and followed were the elect and obviously were from Philadelphia, so they were good to go. These statements came from the top dogs, even the administrator.
Every time someone in government did something, a K was behind it. They started all wars, had all the money, controlled the stock market, had to set up the world for big daddy (as if he needs help) and everyone who had a Jewish type of name was a K. Absurd.
I have been treated better by atheists, heathen and idolators then many of these people. It was PM’s way or the highway. They acted like he climbed Mt. Sinai every year for the Passover gathering and had some golden nugget.
I am not saying he was a bad person. His big gift to me was teaching me how to study, but in doing so, it was to the demise of the narrative. I agree too, the rapture believers have a better leg to stand on then this narrative.
I will add, someone who had such knowledge of scripture, the Hebrew language etc., IMHO, there is no way he didn’t know things were embellished. The cart, on occasion, has been put before the horse to continue forward.
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